???? Against the spread offense...

[RocklandDragon]

What do you guys believe is the best defense against the spread offense? Since many teams use a spread offense (saw Lubbock Coronado use a spread offense against Midland High--didn't work out that well) what do you believe is the best defense against it? Would a 3 line front with 4 db and 4 linebackers (with the ability to move 2 towards the line or spread out)? What do you believe is the best option?

:confused:

[CalallenWildcat]

4-2-5 sounds like the best to me...you got four DL to take on four of the OL...that leaves one OL left. That one OL is going to go after one of your linebackers, that leaves the other free to play the ball. The five DBs can take care of coverage or coming up in run support.

[KT2000]

For purely alignment/personell purposes, I also like the 4-2-5. The 3-3-5 I noted in another thread here is also becoming a popular spread defense.

[slorch]

the 3-3-5 is good, but your 3 DL's better be hosses.

[TEXREB]

I like the 4-2-5 against spread offense.

[CalallenWildcat]

I like the 4-2-5 against spread offense.

If you have speed in the secondary and at linebacker, the 4-2-5 can effectively shut down the spread.

[Favpack]

The problem against a really good spread O is the dilemma of forcing the team to pass - but then giving the qb too much time, or having poor press cb coverage - both are problems for even good defensive units. Katy did a good job against SLC in just about every aspect except the deep ball - not enough pressure.

[KT2000]

That's a good point Favpack. The SLC OL was actually my MVP for the state game. I thought Katy actually played the Dragon offense pretty well again, but McElroy was way too comfortable in the pocket and took advantage of Katy's inexperience at certain spots in the secondary. Katy runs a multiple 3-4.

Any good defense starts up front with strong DL play.

[jtk1519]

3-4... just ask Abilene High

[KT2000]

3-4's tend to turn into 4-2-5's vs. the spread anyway depending on what the talent on D dictates. Drop end (weakside OLB) plays up as a rusher and drops back in zone to confuse on occassion. Sam backer is a Rover type.

[ktCarl]

The problem against a really good spread O is the dilemma of forcing the team to pass - but then giving the qb too much time, or having poor press cb coverage - both are problems for even good defensive units. Katy did a good job against SLC in just about every aspect except the deep ball - not enough pressure.

3-4 worked effectively in 2003/2006 but more pressure was put on Daniels than was put on McElroy. The main ingredient though was a good ball control offense that keeps SLC's offense on the sidelines. Give them less scoring opportunities coupled with less time and force mistakes.

[Panther63]

If my guys are as good as their guys i would line up in a 4-2-5 and play basic gap control,with very little blitzing.If i was playing slc i would line up in a 4-3-4 and bring people every down.

[farmerfan]

If my guys are as good as their guys i would line up in a 4-2-5 and play basic gap control,with very little blitzing.If i was playing slc i would line up in a 4-3-4 and bring people every down.


If you would have seen the play they got out of their line last year then that would be the kiss of death to your football team. they protected McElroy as good as any line ever has in a offense that throws the football as much as Southlake did.

[Panther63]

If you would have seen the play they got out of their line last year then that would be the kiss of death to your football team. they protected McElroy as good as any line ever has in a offense that throws the football as much as Southlake did.

I didn't say it would work..

[football fanatic]

Not only did the SLC line protect McElroy about as good a line can....his accuracy for a high school kid was unreal. To complete almost 70% of your passes against the best hs talent in Texas and to show the leadership abilities to take his team to the state title in his only year playing?? Are you kidding me!!

I remember (as dragondaddy says in an earlier post) how many people on this board predicted that the kid wasn't nearly as good as the pre-hype that surrounded him.....

Since dragondaddy was so good at his talent evaluation of McElroy before anybody else....I would love to know what dragondaddy's thoughts on how this kids talent will translate to the next level at Alabama and the SEC???

[CalallenWildcat]

I want to know what dragonsdaddy's thoughts are on the lottery numbers for tonight :D

[ScottS]

Want to stop SLC? Line up in the 8-8-8.

[CalallenWildcat]

Want to stop SLC? Line up in the 8-8-8.

Unfortunately, I think that would draw a penalty flag :D

[drgnbkr]

Not only did the SLC line protect McElroy about as good a line can....his accuracy for a high school kid was unreal. To complete almost 70% of your passes against the best hs talent in Texas and to show the leadership abilities to take his team to the state title in his only year playing?? Are you kidding me!!

I remember (as dragondaddy says in an earlier post) how many people on this board predicted that the kid wasn't nearly as good as the pre-hype that surrounded him.....

Since dragondaddy was so good at his talent evaluation of McElroy before anybody else....I would love to know what dragondaddy's thoughts on how this kids talent will translate to the next level at Alabama and the SEC???

IMO, McElroy should make the transition to the next level just fine. He is a classic, accurate, thrower, who is a proven leader. He also scored 1580 out of 1600 on his SAT which gives you a little glimpse of how he will deal with picking up the offensive schemes and read the defenses. He was an understudy on one of the most prolific systems in Texas HS football and when he got his chance, he jumped all over it. When he gets his chance at Bama, he should be ready.

[drgnbkr]

3-4 worked effectively in 2003/2006 but more pressure was put on Daniels than was put on McElroy. The main ingredient though was a good ball control offense that keeps SLC's offense on the sidelines. Give them less scoring opportunities coupled with less time and force mistakes.

After watching Carroll closely for years, the 03 Katy game plan and execution was the best method of containing the spread. 04 Abilene and SV were also examples of teams maintaining possesion of the ball to the detriment of the Dragons plans. The first half of the Plano game in 05 was goin OK for the Wildcats, but Carroll out-adjusted them for the rest of the game. Either out score them or out posses them, because it is difficult to stop the Carroll spread when it is clicking.

[KT2000]

For me, Carroll's overwhelming success with the spread is highlighted by efficiency in all phases. That's the real key to any successful system in my opinion.

They very rarely commit big errors; that fact, in conjunction with their aggressive style, puts an enormous amount of pressure on opposing teams before the ball is even kicked off.

Teams go into games against Carroll knowing they can't make big mistakes and have a realistic chance of being in the game with a shot to win.

I tend to stay out of "what offense is the best?" discussions because I don't believe there's one answer.

Addressing Carroll's system alone, I think the two most important qualities a defense needs are:

1. Ability to apply pressure with DL- front men, whether it be 3 or 4 or 5, absolutely must find a way to pressure the backfield and get off of blocks.

2. Ability to play both man and zone defense- must be able to play an aggressive in man and intelligent enough to play a strong zone. Experience at the back is essential.

[Favpack]

For me, Carroll's overwhelming success with the spread is highlighted by efficiency in all phases. That's the real key to any successful system in my opinion.

They very rarely commit big errors; that fact, in conjunction with their aggressive style, puts an enormous amount of pressure on opposing teams before the ball is even kicked off.

Teams go into games against Carroll knowing they can't make big mistakes and have a realistic chance of being in the game with a shot to win.

I tend to stay out of "what offense is the best?" discussions because I don't believe there's one answer.

Addressing Carroll's system alone, I think the two most important qualities a defense needs are:

1. Ability to apply pressure with DL- front men, whether it be 3 or 4 or 5, absolutely must find a way to pressure the backfield and get off of blocks.

2. Ability to play both man and zone defense- must be able to play an aggressive in man and intelligent enough to play a strong zone. Experience at the back is essential.

No. 2 is a good observation. Katy's zone had SLC guessing wrong a few times in the first half -and the game was tight. SLC eventually figured out to just chunk it deep - and multiple people were open several times. Remember Smiter's td grab where Jacobsen was also open and one was in the wrong place? Funny, but effective.

Conversely, Lufkin got burned big time in the semi's all day by playing an ineffective straight up man. Lufkin is much less effective with a zone D against good passing teams.

[LoneRocket]

Multiple formations during the game along with hidden blitz packages.

[KT2000]

Fav,

Another thing I notice about SLC from watching them live and on film is how much they love crossing receivers. The most devasting of which, in my opinion, is the post-corner aka scissors route combo.

When lining up with multiple receivers to a side (usually in 4 wide package, twins on each side in King look), they run that post-corner combination quite a bit. That kind of thing will really mess a secondary up in either man or zone. In man, it's just tough to keep up with good route runners period unless you are just that good of a cover man. In zone, you better know your area inside and out and seamlessly coordinate any switches. The Dragons' play design sets up natural picks. It takes a high degree of intelligence and talent to defend their routes well.

Things like that are why I always emphasize applying pressure up front against spread teams because even the best secondaries can't cover forever. I've said it 1,000 times, so one more time won't hurt. Any good defense starts up front with strong line play.

[scooter!]

just put me in the game i'll stop it! :D

[dragonsdaddy]

i predicted last year based on all i had seen out of both him and his coach. he had more time in the pits than any preceding qb, and had the physical skills to make it work. he will be taking the best training and some of the best talent out of the incoming freshman qbs in the country, into a very good situation at bama. i expect him to get some significant pt by year 2 and possibly this year if things go right. he will be a 3 year starter and go high in the draft, if the injury bug can be kept at bay.

[dragonsdaddy]

as i've written before, the only way to stop a good spread team is to put better athletes on the field. with the no-huddle advantage of being able to change the play based on the defensive formation, they (d's) have to be quite a bit better to be successful. i too think the 8-8-8 might work.

[FeeltheHaka]

Multiple formations during the game along with hidden blitz packages.

I totally agree with this. A good example is when Pittsburgh beat Indianapolis in the playoffs last year in the NFL.
To add to this, I would make sure receivers pay dearly every time they catch the ball.
This is very hard, because it depends on your strengths, and your opponents weakness.

[dragonsdaddy]

the multiple formations can work against you if the complication factor reduces confidence or the kids ability to comprehend and adjust. indecision/confusion is worse than anything when it comes to playing defense. blitzes can be effective, but can also lead to big plays. it has to be part of the package. i can't think about blitzing defenses without realizing how important aaron luna was to slc's successes. tre seems to be following along a parallel path. both sat/sit with the oline between series.

[G-Man]

Fav,

Another thing I notice about SLC from watching them live and on film is how much they love crossing receivers. The most devasting of which, in my opinion, is the post-corner aka scissors route combo.

When lining up with multiple receivers to a side (usually in 4 wide package, twins on each side in King look), they run that post-corner combination quite a bit. That kind of thing will really mess a secondary up in either man or zone. In man, it's just tough to keep up with good route runners period unless you are just that good of a cover man. In zone, you better know your area inside and out and seamlessly coordinate any switches. The Dragons' play design sets up natural picks. It takes a high degree of intelligence and talent to defend their routes well.

Things like that are why I always emphasize applying pressure up front against spread teams because even the best secondaries can't cover forever. I've said it 1,000 times, so one more time won't hurt. Any good defense starts up front with strong line play.

I think u are right on there. Pressure creates errors. Also, the crossing routes take a long time to run. Pressure is essential to defeating a good spread team. On the other side offenses run the crossers to keep u out of man coverage. DB's must be able to switch...very tough for highschoolers. Offenses want you in zone so they can find the voids in coverage...the open spaces.

[zippy]

Many will work, it all depends on your players ability. If you have a strong, fast D-line, where 3 can pressure the QB thats the ideal situation. No matter how many on the D-Lineman, you have to pressure the QB. Then when you apply that pressure and they start hitting the WR in the flats with the little quick pass, you have to know what to do with that. This is where smart DB and LB play comes in, along with good D- Coord playcalling.. If you can do these two things the deep ball will not be there. Also draws can become a problem, hopefully by this time you can have a spy in there on the QB. Once all these things take place the spread is worthless. Its just hard to be consistant with this. A big play will happen. Great examples of this against one of the top "spread teams" is Katy vs. SLC and SV vs SLC in 04.

[dragonsdaddy]

Many will work, it all depends on your players ability. If you have a strong, fast D-line, where 3 can pressure the QB thats the ideal situation. No matter how many on the D-Lineman, you have to pressure the QB. Then when you apply that pressure and they start hitting the WR in the flats with the little quick pass, you have to know what to do with that. This is where smart DB and LB play comes in, along with good D- Coord playcalling.. If you can do these two things the deep ball will not be there. Also draws can become a problem, hopefully by this time you can have a spy in there on the QB. Once all these things take place the spread is worthless. Its just hard to be consistant with this. A big play will happen. Great examples of this against one of the top "spread teams" is Katy vs. SLC and SV vs SLC in 04.
i agree with you that if all those things take place, the spread is "less effective". the ability to make all those things happen is the real issue. lots of teams/coaches recognize the problems presented by the well run spread, and yet seemingly won't/don't/can't do anything about it. sometimes it's a talent issue. others don't have the desire/fortitude to put the effort in to make the spread go away. most, at least in high school have none of the necessary ingredients to see it thru. and since it is tough to win a game while being shut out, the offense can not be neglected. as kt showed, keeping the ball out of the spreads hands is far and away the most devastating defensive scheme.

[Blitzkreig]

i predicted last year based on all i had seen out of both him and his coach. he had more time in the pits than any preceding qb, and had the physical skills to make it work. he will be taking the best training and some of the best talent out of the incoming freshman qbs in the country, into a very good situation at bama. i expect him to get some significant pt by year 2 and possibly this year if things go right. he will be a 3 year starter and go high in the draft, if the injury bug can be kept at bay.

Right on Dad. We were reviewing some '05 SLC film the other day and Mcelroy/supporting cast were unreal for high school level. Particularly impressive was Mcelroy's gut checks...stepping into the pocket, staying there, and being able to see over line to read/devastate defenses. SLC's receivers weren't afraid to get dirty...another important factor in SLC/spread offense success'. Have seen one SLC blowout...hope to see them against some competion...if there is any short of Lufkin. But looking at 5-5A ladder SLC may end up in a '06 Div 1 cakewalk. Go Dragons!!!!

[zippy]

i agree with you that if all those things take place, the spread is "less effective". the ability to make all those things happen is the real issue. lots of teams/coaches recognize the problems presented by the well run spread, and yet seemingly won't/don't/can't do anything about it. sometimes it's a talent issue. others don't have the desire/fortitude to put the effort in to make the spread go away. most, at least in high school have none of the necessary ingredients to see it thru. and since it is tough to win a game while being shut out, the offense can not be neglected. as kt showed, keeping the ball out of the spreads hands is far and away the most devastating defensive scheme.


Just what Katy and SV do. Both have kept SLC to low points. Under 30. Also, a lot of coaches will not put in the time like you said, but alot are also hard headed. They dont like the spread, they know they can win without it, which is fine. However, not using it in some form will hurt the D in practice. SV never used it, and didnt know how to defend it prior to 2002 and we all saw what happened. After that SV choose to run a form of the spread and it allowed them to practice against it. They also learned, from a lot of film, on how to defend it. The more teams get experience playing against it, the better they will be. Within a few years, teams will began to defend it well, and people will go back to some new offense that is "different" which makes it hard to defend. A lot like going from I to wishbone. It will work for a long time, but with time, teams learn how to use and defend against it.

[dragonsdaddy]

historically, what is the average lifespan of a "new" offense like the spread?Just what Katy and SV do. Both have kept SLC to low points. Under 30. Also, a lot of coaches will not put in the time like you said, but alot are also hard headed. They dont like the spread, they know they can win without it, which is fine. However, not using it in some form will hurt the D in practice. SV never used it, and didnt know how to defend it prior to 2002 and we all saw what happened. After that SV choose to run a form of the spread and it allowed them to practice against it. They also learned, from a lot of film, on how to defend it. The more teams get experience playing against it, the better they will be. Within a few years, teams will began to defend it well, and people will go back to some new offense that is "different" which makes it hard to defend. A lot like going from I to wishbone. It will work for a long time, but with time, teams learn how to use and defend against it.

[zippy]

historically, what is the average lifespan of a "new" offense like the spread?

You really cant say 100%. The spread is still new, and really new to high schools. The wishbone was around for quite a while. I would say in another 5-10 years the spead will die down some. If you do not have a full team of very good players it does not work anyway. Many schools will never be able to use a spread. The wishbone/option was something that also required very good players, but nothing like the spread requires. As more and more teams start to use forms of it, and get practice time against it, it will began to be less effective. On another note. The spread may last a long time in schools like Southlake has. One high school that all Jr. highs feed into makes it a little easier to run. Many cities have several pop warner leagues, several Jr. High's, and they all feed into a few high schools. There is no base to teach at early. In towns like Southlake, they have an option to start very early. However, there will be teams that are more comfortable with it once they began to use it in any form.

[The King]

It doesn't really matter what offense or defense is run. THE GAME IS WON OR LOST BETWEEN THE TACKLES. OL AND DL

[scooter!]

I try to play all teams that run the spread in my NCAA football game and i use the 3-3-5 and it works, up until they cross the WRs then my DBs have trouble. I got burned 5 times in one half when they all got crossed up, i was FS and even i got crossed up. its very difficult to defend.

[Bobcat81]

It doesn't really matter what offense or defense is run. THE GAME IS WON OR LOST BETWEEN THE TACKLES. OL AND DL

Thats why the pass was invented ;)

[SLC DRAGON]

a 4-3 with zone coverage is good. you move the backer thats to the field back of the ball like a nickle back.

[LPPACK85]

I like the 4-2-5 against spread offense.

I DO AGREE THAT THE 4-2-5 IS PROBABLY THE BEST DEFENSE AGAINST THE SPREAD, BUT THERE ARE OTHER DEFENSES THAT YOU HAVE TO CONSIDER LIKE THE 3-3-5. YOUR DEFENSE LINEMAN HAVE TO BE VERY VERY GOOD. WHEN PLAYING AGAINST THE SPREAD, YOU HAVE TO GIVE THEM MULTIPLE LOOKS ON THE DEFENSIVE SIDE OF THE BALL. YOUR DEFENSIVE BACKS MUST PLAY A DISCIPLINE GAME, PLAYING THE BALL NOT THE MAN. YOUR LINEBACKERS MUST HAVE SOMEWHAT GOOD SPEED. REMEMBER WHEN PLAYIN THE SPREAD OFFENSE IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO SHOW THEM DIFFERENT LOOKS DEPENDING ON THE 3RD DOWN - 2ND DOWN SITUATIONS BY LINING UP IN MULTIPLE SETS SUCH AS THE 4-2-5, 3-4, 3-3-5, AND SOMETIMES EVEN THE 4-3, YOU HAVE TO KEEP THEM GUESSING AND CONFUSING THEM BY SHOWING THEM THESE DIFFERENT LOOKS. SO THE BOTTOM LINE IS, IT TAKES MULTIPLE DEFENSIVE SETTINGS, YOU CAN'T BLITZ ALL THE TIME AND YOU CAN'T ZONE COVERAGE ALL THE TIME. JUST MIX IT UP WITH THE MULTIPLE SETS PERIOD. THAT COULD POSSIBLY CONFUSE THE OFFENSE BECAUSE THEY DO NOT KNOW WHERE THE STUNTS, BLITZ, OR ZONE COVERAGE IS COMING FROM.

[Leerebels55]

50's deffense stops it the best by far

[TigerHat]

To me the most interesting part of the SLC - MNW game was the defense that MNW ran most of the second half that more or less shut SLC down.

The defense was mostly a 4-2-5 but with a few wrinkles. What MNW did was man coverage on the 4 wideouts, have a line backer shadow the running back , have the other line backer shadow the QB, and a deep safety playing ceterfield to double the ball when a receiver broke free deep.

The man cover corners were able to stay with the SLC receivers long enough to allow the MNW line to pressure the SLC QB on passing plays.

The centerfielder at safety baited the SLC QB's into atempting the deep ball. The problem was that the safety would arrive just as the ball did on deep passes. What appeared to the QB to be a wide open receiver in back of the secondary, turned out not to be by the time the ball got to the receiver. The center safety was playing the ball on the pass - not leaving position in the middle of the field, where he was deeper than the deepest receiver, until the QB actually released the ball.

Much of Miami North West's success against SLC had to do with their superior players, but a large part of it on defense had to do with their scheme.

About the only way to attack that defense SLC found was a screen to the running back. Overall best defensive scheme against a spread I have ever seen.

[youtellatale]

One thing first, there is no formation that works best: the system(coverages, matchups) used and personal involved are what success is bred from. 4-3, 3-4, 335 425 whatever you use, it could be successful if the system has the boys prepared. Personal opinion here and certainly some will disagree with me but I'd say that confusing the opponent's offense is as important to the D's success as the O confusing the Defense. Zone blitzing (blitzing a LB or DB and dropping a DL into short coverage) has success if done properly and not given away early. Showing false coverage and shifting late could work also but you'd better get positioned or you'll chase a WR to the end zone. Bringing pressure from every angle is important but only to the point where you're not selling out with zero coverage on the WRs. You need not really change your base defense (personal opinion) because those players are your best players, the 4-3 used by Alabama in the Cotton bowl against Tech worked quite well because they did what i listed above. Again, could just be me but it doesnt make much sense to completely change your defense, you've got them starting normally because theyre the best players in your system.

[GoRangers]

Depends if its a no-huddle spread or not. If no-huddle, disguise is the very important key, I think. I wouldn't even let any of the DLs get in a 3-pt stance.

I think the spread's two biggest features is the run threat from the formation, and quick passing. You need physical corners or LB to hold up the receivers from getting in to their routes too quickly.

[2smooth07]

3-4 and bring pressure...My DC has about 50 different blitzes out of our Okie look...Now if its the WVU Spread Option look then you got play mix up you fronts and play old schoolm assignment football

[Trojanman96]

What do you guys believe is the best defense against the spread offense? Since many teams use a spread offense (saw Lubbock Coronado use a spread offense against Midland High--didn't work out that well) what do you believe is the best defense against it? Would a 3 line front with 4 db and 4 linebackers (with the ability to move 2 towards the line or spread out)? What do you believe is the best option?

:confused:

Dime package, and a stout running game.

[CACoach]

The team I am with now has been running the 3-3-5 against it lately and we have found spread teams have alot of trouble protecting the stunts we can bring at it.

In regards to someone saying you need real hosses to run the triple stack i disagree. Especially against the spread you can get away the mid size tweeners up front aslong as they can move. This really allows you to play games upfront with your DL/LB's and Safety.

The worst thing to do against the spread in my opinion is sit back and play coverage. Ive seen so many teams do that at all levels and just seen teams get picked a part. You should always be looking to dictate as a defensive coach no matter what the offense.

The only disadvantage to the stack against the spread is if they are really good at angle zone blocking. Base zone blocking is cake, but against angle the stack leaves large cut back lanes.