NJ HS Football Coach Resigns Over Prayer

[LPanther]

Coach quits after being told to end prayers

EAST BRUNSWICK, N.J. (AP) - A veteran central New Jersey high school football coach has resigned after being told by school officials he could no longer lead his team in pregame prayer.

East Brunswick coach Marcus Borden was told last Friday by Schools Superintendent Jo Ann Magistro that some parents had complained about prayers Borden initiated at pregame meals and before the games.
After being told he would have to stop leading or taking part in the prayers, Borden stepped down from his position, just hours before his team's 21-0 loss to Sayreville that evening.

"I'm very disappointed," Borden said in an interview with News 12 New Jersey Tuesday. "Do I feel we were violating someone's rights? I don't think so."

But East Brunswick school officials think differently. According to school officials, the prayers violated the separation between church and state in public schools.

A spokeswoman for the district, Trish LaDuca, said students have the right to pray on school property during school events, but the prayer must be initiated by the students; otherwise it violates the law.

"A representative of the school district cannot constitutionally initiate prayer, encourage it or lead it," LaDuca told the Home News Tribune of East Brunswick. "Representatives of the school cannot participate in the student-initiated prayer."

During the television interview, aired Tuesday, Borden said what he was doing was not uncommon, and coaches across the state lead similar prayers as part of sporting events.

"I'm not out preaching, I'm not a preacher," said Borden, who has led the football program for 23 years. He has a 116-100-1 career record, and his team won the Central Jersey Group IV championship in 2004.

He is the founder of the Snapple Bowl, a charity all-star football game that has raised more than $150,000 for physically and mentally impaired children.

His resignation has divided the school community, with many students and parents supporting the coach.

On Saturday, a group of more than 50 members of the football team and some of their parents traveled to Borden's home and asked the coach to return.

Nancy Halupka, president of the school's football booster club, said she sympathizes with Borden and said the prayer tradition started long before he arrived at the school.

But school officials, who emphasized that they did not force Borden to resign, said some students felt uncomfortable with the prayer and their concerns should be treated with respect.

Magistro, the district's superintendent, said Borden's resignation won't become official until the school board meets on Oct. 20. She said the former coach can rescind his resignation at any time before the meeting, something Borden said was not likely.

"I believe that I made the right decision," said Borden, a Catholic. "I believe I made a decision based on principle. I believe that's who I am."

Borden could not immediately be reached for comment by The Associated Press Tuesday evening. There is no telephone listing in his name.

[green wave]

there's alot of place that have stop the pre game prayer saying it violates the separation of church and state. but there will be alot to answer for come judgement day

[pack98]

It is a sad day what Amarica has come to and over prayer and everything. I am glad the coach resigned from his post. It is those kids who lost a role model. and people always want to complain about there kids watching tv and trying to be like the stars and when the should be looking up to the coaches the teachers there family and this guy did nothing wrong after all. OUR MONEY SAYS IN GOD WE TRUST OVER IT!!!! dont like it well move out of America then.

I know as a former panther we always prayed after practice and before games and after games we all say the lords prayer and have been doing for a while.


GO PANTHERS LETS GET KLEIN.

[fan2005]

this country is in trouble

[gritty52]

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

[green wave]

i second that

[ThEgReAtOnE]

I don't care what our MONEY says on it...if it was a worthless piece of paper, with IN GOD WE TRUST, the majority of us would have no use for it!

Truth is, religion is a personal belief..."PERSONAL"! It's between you and your God! To force this belief upon other human beings is wrong, and it becomes more about harrassment than anything else.

You can't force religion, in this world, you can only make those, who want to know, knowledgable to your belief.

Those kids who want to pray before a game, PRAY, and those who do not wish to...step aside! And this attitude of, "There will be hell to pay on judgement day!", is insulting...and personally that what's very disturbing about religion...the emphasis on life and death. If God excists and he/she or it is as wonderous and brilliant as one is to believe perhaps he/she or it should have made known he/she or it truly excists!

Because I've never seen him/her or it....and I've never heard of anyone seeing him/her or it, let alone know anyone who has!

And please do not use the Bible as a source....it holds no factual proof!

[stevefoxsc]

ill say the same thing i said on yappi. Wasn't this country made on the foundation of christian beliefs if you don't wana pray just leave thats what they do at temple high they ask please step aside if you do not wana join in prayer

[dragonfootballfan]

he should not be allowed to lead a team in prayer. religion is a personal choice and a coach which is a person in power should not be allowed to force his beliefs upon a group of impressionable kids.

[dragonfootballfan]

ill say the same thing i said on yappi. Wasn't this country made on the foundation of christian beliefs if you don't wana pray just leave thats what they do at temple high they ask please step aside if you do not wana join in prayer
why should someone by ostracized? that is not freedom. If you want to pray you should have to leave not the other way around

[stevefoxsc]

why should someone by ostracized? that is not freedom. If you want to pray you should have to leave not the other way around

so what the difference in leaving to pray or leaving to avoid praying. Im just saying this country was founded on christian belief's and these anti religious groups wana practically take praying from everything, if they had there way they'd take prayer away from the church and ban religion :confused:. Yes they have there right to choose to believe or not but dont bring it down for the rest of us

[ThEgReAtOnE]

why should someone by ostracized? that is not freedom. If you want to pray you should have to leave not the other way around

Exactly!

[ThEgReAtOnE]

so what the difference in leaving to pray or leaving to avoid praying. Im just saying this country was founded on christian belief's and these anti religious groups wana practically take praying from everything, if they had there way they'd take prayer away from the church and ban religion :confused:. Yes they have there right to choose to believe or not but dont bring it down for the rest of us

No one is keeping you from your right to pray....and you know that! You seem offended in the fact that there are millions of human beings in this world who choose not to acknowledge religion...let alone pray in public schools.

And this country was founded on greed, blood and money...and if those people, who committed the crimes - in vein of this country and in the empowerment of themselves - were Christians, it doesn't speak to highly of the Christian religion!

[dragonfootballfan]

so what the difference in leaving to pray or leaving to avoid praying. Im just saying this country was founded on christian belief's and these anti religious groups wana practically take praying from everything, if they had there way they'd take prayer away from the church and ban religion :confused:. Yes they have there right to choose to believe or not but dont bring it down for the rest of us
the coach was wrong for basically forcing the kids to pray. One of the great things about this country is that those founders you talk about gave the people of the United States the freedom of religion. A coach telling kids to pray is not allowing certain kids to exercise their freedom of religion. Don't tell me that if the coach said if you don't want to pray you don't have to, because no kid would ever go against what his coach says and the kid would be made fun of for it. There is no place for organized religion in athletic teams where there could potentially be people of all religions there.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

the coach was wrong for basically forcing the kids to pray. One of the great things about this country is that those founders you talk about gave the people of the United States the freedom of religion. A coach telling kids to pray is not allowing certain kids to exercise their freedom of religion. Don't tell me that if the coach said if you don't want to pray you don't have to, because no kid would ever go against what his coach says and the kid would be made fun of for it. There is no place for organized religion in athletic teams where there could potentially be people of all religions there.

Well said!

[dragonfootballfan]

Well said!
I have a feeling that we are going to be outnumbered on this one

[ThEgReAtOnE]

I have a feeling that we are going to be outnumbered on this one

Ya......drop your sh** and run!!!!! :D

[FootballJunkie]

RELIGION can pit brother against brother can't get involved in this one :D

[ThEgReAtOnE]

RELIGION can pit brother against brother can't get involved in this one :D

You said it......I'm out the door with you!!

[TheDawghouse]

Wow, so now being an atheist is the correct thing to do? We pray before and after every practice and every game. One of our players leads the team, and we all follow through, nobody "gets up and leaves".

[dragonfootballfan]

You said it......I'm out the door with you!!
me too. I said my piece. bye

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Wow, so now being an atheist is the correct thing to do? We pray before and after every practice and every game. One of our players leads the team, and we all follow through, nobody "gets up and leaves".

I'm stepping back in the door to answer your reply....

Yes, I guess, being an atheist is the right thing...because it's as close to being an American as you can get. You have the freedom of religion....if you want to pray, PRAY....if I, as a player, don't want to....I don't have to.

You're not right, just because you're Christian.(Or Religious, period!)

[stevefoxsc]

the coach was wrong for basically forcing the kids to pray. One of the great things about this country is that those founders you talk about gave the people of the United States the freedom of religion. A coach telling kids to pray is not allowing certain kids to exercise their freedom of religion. Don't tell me that if the coach said if you don't want to pray you don't have to, because no kid would ever go against what his coach says and the kid would be made fun of for it. There is no place for organized religion in athletic teams where there could potentially be people of all religions there.


it doesn't say he forced them to pray he had good intentions just went at them wrong way, all it ses is he would do pregame prayer's and some of the student's were offended by it, probably kid's just lookin for attention like that canadian guy who turns his back during the american anthem, now if student's had did it there would be no crime.

I know ive said this country was founded on christian beliefes over and over and we gave people right to bare arm's choose to believe or not we gave people there right's, but then they wana take away are christian foundation in this country, i mean the money says in god we trust, we when pledge are alligance we say one nation under god, " one Nation under God,
These 50 individual states are united as a single Republic under the Divine providence of God, "our most powerful resource" (according to the words of President Eisenhower)". Sorta sad to see what people went through and struggle to create then to only taken away now, the way i see it we should have our right's but like the muslims and other relgiious group who step out during the pledge of alligance should give athiest there right to avoid prayer not take it away from us.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

me too. I said my piece. bye

I'm done, as well.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

it doesn't say he forced them to pray he had good intentions just went at them wrong way

Stepping back in, again, to answer your reply...


Having group prayer is forcing, unless he says, "If you guys want to individually pray, do so, if not, lets get ready to play!"

The option, and or right, to refuse public prayer needs to be available. And you guys may not know how difficult it is to be the odd man out...while the other 70 players are wanting to go through with the prayer!

You're seperating a team, even though your intentions are not to. And that one player shouldn't have to be in that situation in the first place...

hence, religion is personal, between you and your God!

[Standing On Tradition KT]

it doesn't say he forced them to pray he had good intentions just went at them wrong way

It's dumb how this country is fallen apart........taking "under God" out of the Pledge......When I played football we prayed in Jr. High before a game and in high school we prayed everyday after practice and no1 ever had a problem with it........Just amazes me how this nation is starting to turn out.

[LPanther]

Because I've never seen him/her or it....and I've never heard of anyone seeing him/her or it, let alone know anyone who has!

I see God all the time. When I see a beautiful sunset, a newborn baby, or a butterfly floating in the wind. Religion is based on Faith, which is believing in what we know in our heart to be true regardless of being able to physically touch it. Otherwise, you must believe that the Earth was created randomly, and that all events that follow have no rhyme, reason, or pattern.
No Christians that I know would try to force religion upon you. Christianity is exclusive of no one, and is available to all that want to accept it.
As to your statement that this Country was built on "greed,blood, and money............I'm not sure what you base that on, but I do believe the founders of our Country were driven by Christian principles, and created the greatest nation on Earth.

[bubbacoach]

I pray with my team at the end of every practice and after every game. i do not think that believing in God and thanking him for what he has done for us is a bad thing. The day they tell me to stop I will move on. The problem with society today is we are all worried about being PC. If you choose not to believe that is your choice. You are choosing your ultimate destiny. If more kids had God in their life or a good role model showing them the Christian way to live, we would have a better world. It is all these lost souls that are tearing society down. And if they are upset that I believe in GOD and pray with my team then they can .........

[CLFalcon2006]

Political Corectness will be the death of this country.

I'm more angry at how 1 or 2 guys can run this country just by causing a fuss. Since 1951, when "under God" was placed in the pledge it hasn't caused trouble. Then 1 guy who has nothing better to do causes a ruckus and because everyone is afriad of being unPC we let this 1 guy change a harmless system (Guarntee you he went home the next day and said "thank GOD I won"). This countiry has lost the majority of its fighting spirit, GOD help us if we get into a major war where we need a draft.

[Shoot2thrill]

I don't care what our MONEY says on it...if it was a worthless piece of paper, with IN GOD WE TRUST, the majority of us would have no use for it!

Truth is, religion is a personal belief..."PERSONAL"! It's between you and your God! To force this belief upon other human beings is wrong, and it becomes more about harrassment than anything else.

You can't force religion, in this world, you can only make those, who want to know, knowledgable to your belief.

Those kids who want to pray before a game, PRAY, and those who do not wish to...step aside! And this attitude of, "There will be hell to pay on judgement day!", is insulting...and personally that what's very disturbing about religion...the emphasis on life and death. If God excists and he/she or it is as wonderous and brilliant as one is to believe perhaps he/she or it should have made known he/she or it truly excists!

Because I've never seen him/her or it....and I've never heard of anyone seeing him/her or it, let alone know anyone who has!

And please do not use the Bible as a source....it holds no factual proof!

After reading your response to this thread, the absurdity of so many of your previous posts now makes sense. There IS a God and may He have mercy on your soul. You, like all of us are going to need it. :(

[BigArab]

I would have to say he had good intentions, but you have to follow the law. I also agree that players were probably just doing it for attention. If they followed the proper channels, they would've gone to him first and talked to him about it. If he refused to change his mind, then I think the next step would be to tell a parent. I know even down here in the Bible-belt, many coaches don't hang around for the prayer. They leave it up to the players. Even back in the day when I played, there would be a short coach-lead semi-devotional; mainly "think of your team tonight" type of devotional, then the coaches would leave the room and a player would lead the prayer. This was a democracy when it came to this though. The players were in unison in their decision to pray before games.

But either way, I respect him for believing strongly enough to leave the school, but he should've followed the law of this land (another of God's commands).

[SVite]

I don't care what our MONEY says on it...if it was a worthless piece of paper, with IN GOD WE TRUST, the majority of us would have no use for it!

Truth is, religion is a personal belief..."PERSONAL"! It's between you and your God! To force this belief upon other human beings is wrong, and it becomes more about harrassment than anything else.

You can't force religion, in this world, you can only make those, who want to know, knowledgable to your belief.

Those kids who want to pray before a game, PRAY, and those who do not wish to...step aside! And this attitude of, "There will be hell to pay on judgement day!", is insulting...and personally that what's very disturbing about religion...the emphasis on life and death. If God excists and he/she or it is as wonderous and brilliant as one is to believe perhaps he/she or it should have made known he/she or it truly excists!

Because I've never seen him/her or it....and I've never heard of anyone seeing him/her or it, let alone know anyone who has!

And please do not use the Bible as a source....it holds no factual proof!


Well you cant see the air that keeps you alive either,so...it`s not there,i dont care if you tell me that the air is there, i cant believe the air is there, i cant see it.

For God (our Father SOOOOOOOOOO Loved the world (unsaved humans)That He sent His only Son,not to condemn it,but to save it (from eternal death).

[SeguinMatadors]

After reading your response to this thread, the absurdity of so many of your previous posts now makes sense. There IS a God and may He have mercy on your soul. You, like all of us are going to need it. :(

Amen to that.

[PACKMAN]

According to "ThEgReAtOnE" ..... "And this country was founded on greed, blood and money...and if those people, who committed the crimes - in vein of this country and in the empowerment of themselves - were Christians, it doesn't speak to highly of the Christian religion!"


Are you kidding? "ThEgReAtOnE" Let me guess who you worship. Not even "man" enough to list your real location ........ pitiful!

I'd be surprised if you werent a foreigner just visiting this great country!

And by the way ......... don't come to east texas and spout that liberal garbage. Might get trampled by the "welcome wagon" !!

[SeguinMatadors]

And this country was founded on greed, blood and money...and if those people, who committed the crimes - in vein of this country and in the empowerment of themselves - were Christians, it doesn't speak to highly of the Christian religion![/FONT]


Are you kidding? "ThEgReAtOnE" Let me guess who you worship. Not even "man" enough to list your real location ........ pitiful!

I'd be surprised if you werent a foreigner just visiting this great country!

And by the way ......... don't come to east texas and spout that liberal garbage. Might get trampled by the "welcome wagon" !![/QUOTE]

LMAO.

[PACKMAN]

I pray with my team at the end of every practice and after every game. i do not think that believing in God and thanking him for what he has done for us is a bad thing. The day they tell me to stop I will move on. The problem with society today is we are all worried about being PC. If you choose not to believe that is your choice. You are choosing your ultimate destiny. If more kids had God in their life or a good role model showing them the Christian way to live, we would have a better world. It is all these lost souls that are tearing society down. And if they are upset that I believe in GOD and pray with my team then they can .........


Stand tall and proud "bubbacoach". Remember ................ one door may close, but another will surely be opened. High school sports needs more role models such as yourself ! We are not the minority yet !

[BigArab]

According to "ThEgReAtOnE" ..... "And this country was founded on greed, blood and money...and if those people, who committed the crimes - in vein of this country and in the empowerment of themselves - were Christians, it doesn't speak to highly of the Christian religion!"


Are you kidding? "ThEgReAtOnE" Let me guess who you worship. Not even "man" enough to list your real location ........ pitiful!

I'd be surprised if you werent a foreigner just visiting this great country!

And by the way ......... don't come to east texas and spout that liberal garbage. Might get trampled by the "welcome wagon" !!

Hey, he has as much a right not to believe in God, as you have the right to believe. Please, when it comes to religion, lets just not talk about it on this forum. If you want to do that, go to some other website. We're all united in the love of football.

[rangerpride]

It's amazing how the wording in the Constitution has been twisted and taken out of context over the years.

I guarantee when our founding fathers came up with the idea of "separation of church and state" they did NOT intend it to mean no church related doctrines or wording can be associated with any government funded agency.

It you actually STUDY and read the constitution and the Declaration of Independence it's quite clear this provision was included as a way to insure that the government could never enforce ONE NATIONAL religion upon Americans. Remember, many people left Great Britain to escape the "National Religion" of the Roman Catholic church. They wanted to make sure everyone had the opportnuity to worship the way they wanted to worship. They did not intenf for us to go so far as to say you can't post teh Ten Commandments in a courthouse, or say "Under God" in a pledge of Allegiance to our nation's flag, because it might make a small number of people "uncomfortable."

Heaven forbid we make anyone feel uncomfortable. It's impossible to go through life without ever offending someone or making them feel uncomfortable. I don't drink, but I am around a lot of people that do drink. When they are all drinking and trying to get me to join in it makes me feel uncomfortable. Does that mean no one should be allowed to drink around me because I feel pressured to "fit in" and join them??? Of course not!!! I may stand out, but that's a choice I make.

It's the same for a non-Christian on a football team that is praying before a game. So what if they feel uncomfortable? No one is forcing EVERY KID to say the Lord's Prayer, or to even bow their heads. I seriously doubt there is a "watchdog coach" going around slapping kids they see who don't have their heads bowed or don't move their lips while others are praying. If you are an atheist, use that time instead to focus "your positive energy" to prepare for the game.

This PC crap of "if it offended anyone, no one should be allowed to do it anymore" is becoming the downfall of our country. It's making us a wimpy society that will eventually destroy itself. Morals have gone down the toilet too. The next thing you know we'll be like the Romans where wild drunken orgies will be the social norm. Those of us who stayed awake in history class know what the end result was for the Romans. The rest of you should wake up see what's going on around you. Ask yourself... who had higher moral standards: today's society or society in the 1700's when this country was founded?

[bubbacoach]

It's amazing how the wording in the Constitution has been twisted and taken out of context over the years.

I guarantee when our founding fathers came up with the idea of "separation of church and state" they did NOT intend it to mean no church related doctrines or wording can be associated with any government funded agency.

It you actually STUDY and read the constitution and the Declaration of Independence it's quite clear this provision was included as a way to insure that the government could never enforce ONE NATIONAL religion upon Americans. Remember, many people left Great Britain to escape the "National Religion" of the Roman Catholic church. They wanted to make sure everyone had the opportnuity to worship the way they wanted to worship. They did not intenf for us to go so far as to say you can't post teh Ten Commandments in a courthouse, or say "Under God" in a pledge of Allegiance to our nation's flag, because it might make a small number of people "uncomfortable."

Heaven forbid we make anyone feel uncomfortable. It's impossible to go through life without ever offending someone or making them feel uncomfortable. I don't drink, but I am around a lot of people that do drink. When they are all drinking and trying to get me to join in it makes me feel uncomfortable. Does that mean no one should be allowed to drink around me because I feel pressured to "fit in" and join them??? Of course not!!! I may stand out, but that's a choice I make.

It's the same for a non-Christian on a football team that is praying before a game. So what if they feel uncomfortable? No one is forcing EVERY KID to say the Lord's Prayer, or to even bow their heads. I seriously doubt there is a "watchdog coach" going around slapping kids they see who don't have their heads bowed or don't move their lips while others are praying. If you are an atheist, use that time instead to focus "your positive energy" to prepare for the game.

This PC crap of "if it offended anyone, no one should be allowed to do it anymore" is becoming the downfall of our country. It's making us a wimpy society that will eventually destroy itself. Morals have gone down the toilet too. The next thing you know we'll be like the Romans where wild drunken orgies will be the social norm. Those of us who stayed awake in history class know what the end result was for the Romans. The rest of you should wake up see what's going on around you. Ask yourself... who had higher moral standards: today's society or society in the 1700's when this country was founded?
The society we live in is a society that is greedy, it does have morals that are slipping away, it is getting worse. If you people, who do not believe in prayer at school would just take a second and look at our society as a whole right now, you would see it heading in the wrong direction. In my study of Ecclesiates (the wisest, richest man that ever lived) I have learned that chasing all monetary happiness in the world is futile. He talks about having all the women he could ever want, he talks about ruling all the land he wanted, he talked about having all the booze he wanted, he talked about owning thousands of horses, having 100's of slaves, but none of this made him happy until he realized it was all meaningless without GOD. Once he accepted the fact that GOD is a powerful being he found happiness. He understood that regardless of what you accomplish or what you earn that you will return to the earth with exactly what you brought into it. Everything you accomplish everything you achieve will be forgotten within 100 years of your death. So, Why do we do it? There are the obvious reasons to provide shelter, to provide food, to provide substinence for our family. Other than that we want to be the wealthiest, the best looking, the most popular for selfish reasons. These things will never make you happy. The more money you make, the more money you want to make. Being caught up in physical beauty, yea, lets all go get cosmetic surgery. Like all the happy people in Hollywood at their drug rehab centers. If you accept and believe that their is a master plan for all of us. It will make your life much easier. And remember this "THE GREAT ONE", there is only one truly great one and it is not you. It is GOD!!!!!!

[TigerV1]

No one is keeping you from your right to pray....and you know that! You seem offended in the fact that there are millions of human beings in this world who choose not to acknowledge religion...let alone pray in public schools.

And this country was founded on greed, blood and money...and if those people, who committed the crimes - in vein of this country and in the empowerment of themselves - were Christians, it doesn't speak to highly of the Christian religion!


Can you try to get your point across without attacking Christianity?

[BigArab]

As much as I hate to jump back into this one, I have to burst some bubbles. Am I a Christian? Yes. Do I think this country's moral standards have gone down the tube? Yes. Should we allow someone to break the law just because we agree with his stance? Absolutely not.

First of all, history lesson: The people came here to escape the Church of England (the Protestant Church). Secondly, truth be told, most of the founding fathers were diest. They believed in a higher power, but they thought he just spun the world in motion like a spinning top and they were all (basically) alone on the planet. One of those grievances talked about in the Declaration of Independence is taxation without respresentation (some of that going to the Church of England, which they came to this country to get away from.) Did they want freedom of religion in this country? YES! But not to make Christianity the state religion. That would've been following suit with what England was doing.

Now with that said, while it is upsetting to the coach, and to a lot of you, it is FEDERAL LAW that he, in a public position, cannot lead students in prayer. While he may feel he is doing the right thing by resigning, he's going against scripture where it says that we must follow the laws of our government, even if we feel they are not right. God has given them power to govern these people.

I am certain this is all within His divine plan, and something good will come out of this either way. Nothing happens on this planet without God's consent or previous knowledge. And quit trying to crucify The Great One. If you forget all other verses, remember "Justice is mine, sayeth the Lord."

[GARLAND99]

This country was founded on the basis of Christian beliefs. This country was once GREAT because of our Christian ways of doing things. Every building in Washington DC has some sort of Religious markings on it or in it. MONEY...The most prized possession to many of the people in this country says "IN GOD WE TRUST". But yet we say that the Church and State should be seperate. What a joke.

The problem is this. OUR country has become one in which the person or group that complains the most and the loudest gets their way. The problem with that is obvious. The unfortunate thing is that their aren't enough Christian organizations that are stepping up and competing with these other complaining groups. I mean it's rediculous. 3 or 4 years ago a state had to take off the little saying from their car license plates because it made referance to GOD. Do the same people that complained about that still use OUR MONEY??? I hope not, but then again it wouldn't benefit them to stop using money.

Joseph Stalin (Czar of Russia) once said that the United States would collapse from with-in. Looks like he knew what he was talking about.

[toonman]

Please note the title of this website - 5ATexasFootball.com - can we keep this a forum for football discussions and keep religion out of it. What next politics. There are many discussion forums for religion and politics; if you are so inclined in reveal your persuasion to the greater public. I am here for football, nothing else but football, so please keep your religious, political or whatever views to yourself.

[pack0808]

Political Corectness will be the death of this country.

I'm more angry at how 1 or 2 guys can run this country just by causing a fuss. Since 1951, when "under God" was placed in the pledge it hasn't caused trouble. Then 1 guy who has nothing better to do causes a ruckus and because everyone is afriad of being unPC we let this 1 guy change a harmless system (Guarntee you he went home the next day and said "thank GOD I won"). This countiry has lost the majority of its fighting spirit, GOD help us if we get into a major war where we need a draft.


Amen!! I have this argument too many times in here and i am not wanting to get into it again. My stance is clear and it is clear to the vast majority of Americans. Scary what a few activist can do?? Either way i am not going there again. I am done!!

[lonny23]

I don't care what our MONEY says on it...if it was a worthless piece of paper, with IN GOD WE TRUST, the majority of us would have no use for it!

Truth is, religion is a personal belief..."PERSONAL"! It's between you and your God! To force this belief upon other human beings is wrong, and it becomes more about harrassment than anything else.

You can't force religion, in this world, you can only make those, who want to know, knowledgable to your belief.

Those kids who want to pray before a game, PRAY, and those who do not wish to...step aside! And this attitude of, "There will be hell to pay on judgement day!", is insulting...and personally that what's very disturbing about religion...the emphasis on life and death. If God excists and he/she or it is as wonderous and brilliant as one is to believe perhaps he/she or it should have made known he/she or it truly excists!

Because I've never seen him/her or it....and I've never heard of anyone seeing him/her or it, let alone know anyone who has!

And please do not use the Bible as a source....it holds no factual proof!
I prayed that God will make himself known to you. I haven't seen him, but I have been guided by Him in my daily life. The Holy Spirit guides us and we all have a still small spirit inside us that talks to us.

[lonny23]

I have a feeling that we are going to be outnumbered on this one
And that's a good thing!

[LPFAN]

Please note the title of this website - 5ATexasFootball.com - can we keep this a forum for football discussions and keep religion out of it. What next politics. There are many discussion forums for religion and politics; if you are so inclined in reveal your persuasion to the greater public. I am here for football, nothing else but football, so please keep your religious, political or whatever views to yourself.
It is very simple. If you don't want to see anything that is written about this topic all you have to do is SKIP THIS THREAD. There are alot of threads on here that I have no interest in even if they are one of the newest ones. So I just don't read them. It is not that hard to do. But I guess you will be one of the ones that will say even discussing the topic makes you uncomfortable so it should be banned huh. It is crazy because I think a lot of the clueless members on here post ridiculous comments on here and I don't like it (makes me feel uncomfortable...lol) but I will not go and try to have them banned just because I don't like their way of doing things.

[lonny23]

I'll be the last person to say we need to force those who don't want to pray to pray, but what we've done in this country is a crime. We've taken away the free exercise of prayer all in the name of not offending people. I still say the people should be allowed to leave to not hear prayer vs. not allowing it.

[LPFAN]

Please note the title of this website - 5ATexasFootball.com - can we keep this a forum for football discussions and keep religion out of it. What next politics. There are many discussion forums for religion and politics; if you are so inclined in reveal your persuasion to the greater public. I am here for football, nothing else but football, so please keep your religious, political or whatever views to yourself.
And in case you didn't read the beginning of the thread it did have to do with Football and Prayer. In case you haven't been around football for long there has been Prayer at football games for a long time all around the country. I know it has been around East Texas for a long time.

[fan2005]

The thing about this argument is that in the end, it will be settled.

[lonny23]

It's dumb how this country is fallen apart........taking "under God" out of the Pledge......When I played football we prayed in Jr. High before a game and in high school we prayed everyday after practice and no1 ever had a problem with it........Just amazes me how this nation is starting to turn out.
There has always been an element of rebellion in the U.S. who didn't want to live according to the Bible and a lot of them moved west in the 1800's. The big thing is the socialist/communist movement that started in the 1800's. It's the forerunner of our CURRENT political system and actions and has shaped our education system. The Soviet Union knew how to take down our society, but they were too stupid to see the same thing is what ruined them.

[lonny23]

After reading your response to this thread, the absurdity of so many of your previous posts now makes sense. There IS a God and may He have mercy on your soul. You, like all of us are going to need it. :(
You'll never win him over with comments like that. Those who don't believe will never believe if not shown love. There is a difference between love and acceptance and ignoring sin, but you must always be mindful to love a person and not like their actions only.

[Kingwolf]

don't agree with the deist theory big arab...i have seen too many documents signed by those founding fathers who mentioned Christ as well as other sources(have seen many of these in my graduate studies)....otherwise you are pretty sound....the Chuch of England was definitely the culprit as well as the Catholic church for other parts of Europe....

the pledge of allegiance, if you are unaware, was changed as much as a reference to God as to the spread of communism...remember McCarthy???

Arab the argument about following the law of the government is true, however if you read a little further it also clarifies as long as that does not go against scripture.......


Now my view, in our country he does NOT have the right to force his beliefs on anyone, it should have been handled in a better way...by doing so it could cost the school district millions, ie lawsuits...As far as the coach goes, I agree the man has a right to quit on his principles...

and let THEGREATONE believe as he wishes, don't dog him for it...one of my friends is an agnostic, and it is his choice...many dont except religion b/c of the way people have acted in its name as TGO has argued...

Great one, what i will say is this, there is a man named Lee Stroebel who was an atheist who wrote several books on some of the very arguments you brought up, ie science or past behaviors...check him out or i will gladly send them to you.........

the other remark about the bible not being true, i have had classes on Koine Greek that the new testament was written in and will hopefully soon start Hebrew for the old testament...I have also had classes on the history of these two texts (from unbiased standpoint) as well as archeaology on the NT and you would really be suprised how unchanged these documents really are from the original manuscripts that have been found..........

[lonny23]

The society we live in is a society that is greedy, it does have morals that are slipping away, it is getting worse. If you people, who do not believe in prayer at school would just take a second and look at our society as a whole right now, you would see it heading in the wrong direction. In my study of Ecclesiates (the wisest, richest man that ever lived) I have learned that chasing all monetary happiness in the world is futile. He talks about having all the women he could ever want, he talks about ruling all the land he wanted, he talked about having all the booze he wanted, he talked about owning thousands of horses, having 100's of slaves, but none of this made him happy until he realized it was all meaningless without GOD. Once he accepted the fact that GOD is a powerful being he found happiness. He understood that regardless of what you accomplish or what you earn that you will return to the earth with exactly what you brought into it. Everything you accomplish everything you achieve will be forgotten within 100 years of your death. So, Why do we do it? There are the obvious reasons to provide shelter, to provide food, to provide substinence for our family. Other than that we want to be the wealthiest, the best looking, the most popular for selfish reasons. These things will never make you happy. The more money you make, the more money you want to make. Being caught up in physical beauty, yea, lets all go get cosmetic surgery. Like all the happy people in Hollywood at their drug rehab centers. If you accept and believe that their is a master plan for all of us. It will make your life much easier. And remember this "THE GREAT ONE", there is only one truly great one and it is not you. It is GOD!!!!!!
Solomon lost everything because he lost his first love with God. He married all those other women and they turned his love away from God. His blessings went with it. Life is much smoother when you allow God to be in control.

[pack0808]

don't agree with the deist theory big arab...i have seen too many documents signed by those founding fathers who mentioned Christ as well as other sources(have seen many of these in my graduate studies)....otherwise you are pretty sound....the Chuch of England was definitely the culprit as well as the Catholic church for other parts of Europe....

the pledge of allegiance, if you are unaware, was changed as much as a reference to God as to the spread of communism...remember McCarthy???

Arab the argument about following the law of the government is true, however if you read a little further it also clarifies as long as that does not go against scripture.......


Now my view, in our country he does NOT have the right to force his beliefs on anyone, it should have been handled in a better way...by doing so it could cost the school district millions, ie lawsuits...As far as the coach goes, I agree the man has a right to quit on his principles...

and let THEGREATONE believe as he wishes, don't dog him for it...one of my friends is an agnostic, and it is his choice...many dont except religion b/c of the way people have acted in its name as TGO has argued...

Great one, what i will say is this, there is a man named Lee Stroebel who was an atheist who wrote several books on some of the very arguments you brought up, ie science or past behaviors...check him out or i will gladly send them to you.........

the other remark about the bible not being true, i have had classes on Koine Greek that the new testament was written in and will hopefully soon start Hebrew for the old testament...I have also had classes on the history of these two texts (from unbiased standpoint) as well as archeaology on the NT and you would really be suprised how unchanged these documents really are from the original manuscripts that have been found..........


I have read a Lee Stroebel book. Great stuff! Talk about going by only facts. That book will surprise you with factual research that really makes you think!! :eek:

[lonny23]

Can you try to get your point across without attacking Christianity?
No, because there are very few athiests out there. We are created with the knowledge that a supreme being (God) exists. Most people who say they're athiests know God exists, but they say there is no God because they're mad at God for some reason. That's why they attack God. You don't need to attack something you don't think exists.

[lonny23]

This country was founded on the basis of Christian beliefs. This country was once GREAT because of our Christian ways of doing things. Every building in Washington DC has some sort of Religious markings on it or in it. MONEY...The most prized possession to many of the people in this country says "IN GOD WE TRUST". But yet we say that the Church and State should be seperate. What a joke.

The problem is this. OUR country has become one in which the person or group that complains the most and the loudest gets their way. The problem with that is obvious. The unfortunate thing is that their aren't enough Christian organizations that are stepping up and competing with these other complaining groups. I mean it's rediculous. 3 or 4 years ago a state had to take off the little saying from their car license plates because it made referance to GOD. Do the same people that complained about that still use OUR MONEY??? I hope not, but then again it wouldn't benefit them to stop using money.

Joseph Stalin (Czar of Russia) once said that the United States would collapse from with-in. Looks like he knew what he was talking about.
Yeah, they knew it would collapse and the USSR said they were going to do it. They published 43 Soviet goals for the U.S. in the Congressional Record in 1963 and they pulled them off. You used to be able to find the goals on Mancow's website.

[Fleeman93]

You can't blame the district for making the decision that they did based on the coach or coaches leading in prayer. Right or wrong I would have to guess that the district was simply looking out for the best intrest of the district. Lawsuits could have cost the district millions and that wouldn't be good for anyone. The team can still have team prayer anytime they want.

[SVite]

Seperate prayer from school.lets see who started schools in this country?Could it be the christians?Who started hospitals in this country?could it be the christians?Both of these instuitions,have gotten out of control.The atheist took prayer, and the word of Jesus (bible)out of the school in the early 60`s.You go back and do a study of how the school systems have changed for the worse since the 60`s.They took the bible out,and brought in the weapons,and drugs,and took the authority of the teachers and flushed it.If you think that evil,and sin was higher in sodom,and gamorah than it is in todays towns,your wrong.We`re like thousands of times more evil ,than the 2 cities that God wiped off the face of the earth.Scientist have found brimstone all over where those 2 cities used to be.Stone that is not found any where else on this earth.We are all made eternal,eternal death,or eternal life.It`s worth seeking the truth.

We all buy insurances of all kinds,to bail us out.Is it stupid to search for the Real life insurance,the eternal life.

[BigArab]

First of all, Stalin was not a Czar. Second of all, while many founding fathers were Protestant or Calvinist, many were Deist as well. I promise you. Deist reject "revelations" in favor of reason. Many of these guys thought they were too intelligent to believe in God giving you divine revelations.

But, while you are correct about not following law that goes against the law of God, they aren't asking him to not practice religion; they're telling him that he can't make others practice it. I know I know...it probably wasn't his intention to force anything, but this is the law.

[lonny23]

First of all, Stalin was not a Czar. Second of all, while many founding fathers were Protestant or Calvinist, many were Deist as well. I promise you. Deist reject "revelations" in favor of reason. Many of these guys thought they were too intelligent to believe in God giving you divine revelations.

But, while you are correct about not following law that goes against the law of God, they aren't asking him to not practice religion; they're telling him that he can't make others practice it. I know I know...it probably wasn't his intention to force anything, but this is the law.
We had people like Alexander Hamilton who didn't appear to be in lockstep with God. Others like Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson weren't completely card carrying Bible thumpers even though they read the Bible and believed in God.

[BigArab]

We had people like Alexander Hamilton who didn't appear to be in lockstep with God. Others like Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson weren't completely card carrying Bible thumpers even though they read the Bible and believed in God.

Ben Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, Thomas Payne, and George Washington were "undefined" deists. At this time, deism wasn't necessarily defined, but most of these men rejected Godly revelations in favor for their own intelligence and reason.

Albert Einstein was a deist.

Bottom line...Let's talk about some football!

[toonman]

I see God all the time. When I see a beautiful sunset, a newborn baby, or a butterfly floating in the wind. Religion is based on Faith, which is believing in what we know in our heart to be true regardless of being able to physically touch it. Otherwise, you must believe that the Earth was created randomly, and that all events that follow have no rhyme, reason, or pattern.
No Christians that I know would try to force religion upon you. Christianity is exclusive of no one, and is available to all that want to accept it.
As to your statement that this Country was built on "greed,blood, and money............I'm not sure what you base that on, but I do believe the founders of our Country were driven by Christian principles, and created the greatest nation on Earth.

Do not forget the Tsunami, Hurricane Katrina, Hurricane Rita and the Earthquake in Pakistan. This too must be the work of a loving and caring god. If there is a god, something is not right here, how can the 'creator' be such a destroyer of the human life, which the 'creator' is supposed have ‘created’. Remember the bible was written when all people on earth thought the world was flat and we know that has been proved wrong.

[EastTexasDad]

Do not forget the Tsunami, Hurricane Katrina, Hurricane Rita and the Earthquake in Pakistan. This too must be the work of a loving and caring god. If there is a god, something is not right here, how can the 'creator' be such a destroyer of the human life, which the 'creator' is supposed have ‘created’. Remember the bible was written when all people on earth thought the world was flat and we know that has been proved wrong.

You and other atheist like you are what's wrong with the world. Those events are punishment because of the likes of you.

[lonny23]

You and other atheist like you are what's wrong with the world. Those events are punishment because of the likes of you.
Come on, don't say that.

[lonny23]

Do not forget the Tsunami, Hurricane Katrina, Hurricane Rita and the Earthquake in Pakistan. This too must be the work of a loving and caring god. If there is a god, something is not right here, how can the 'creator' be such a destroyer of the human life, which the 'creator' is supposed have ‘created’. Remember the bible was written when all people on earth thought the world was flat and we know that has been proved wrong.
He is a just God. He gave us free will to love him when he created us. He also said there is consequences for our sins. Things do happen as a consequence for our sins, but a lot of these world events happen to draw us closer to the end time. Tragedy also brings us closer to God and humbles us if we react the right way. Because you don't serve God, His ways are foreign to you. That's not the best way, but I understand it and pray that you'll understand one day by having a loving relationship with your creator.

[BigArab]

You and other atheist like you are what's wrong with the world. Those events are punishment because of the likes of you.

It is also punishment because of the likes of you. Lest you forget, we are all fallible creatures. Any sin you commit compared to any sin an atheist commits is equal in the eyes of the Lord.

[EastTexasDad]

It is also punishment because of the likes of you. Lest you forget, we are all fallible creatures. Any sin you commit compared to any sin an atheist commits is equal in the eyes of the Lord.

Perhaps you are right but in the end non-believers will not be forgiven for their sins and will burn in the lake of fire. While those who believe and ask for forgiveness will find their place next to the right hand. WHICH WILL YOU BE??

[BigArab]

Perhaps you are right but in the end non-believers will not be forgiven for their sins and will burn in the lake of fire. While those who believe and ask for forgiveness will find their place next to the right hand. WHICH WILL YOU BE??

This is true, but atheist cannot come to Father except through the Son, and how will they believe in the Son when you get in their face and say "THE TSUNAMI IS BECAUSE OF YOU, HEATHEN!! REPENT!!" That isn't loving, it sure as heck isn't Christ-like, and it is completely false to blame punishment for sin in this life on non-believers.

[toonman]

You and other atheist like you are what's wrong with the world. Those events are punishment because of the likes of you.
I have not killed a person in the name of god. I accept all christian values; honor thy father and thy mother, do not commit adultery, do not steal etc, but because I do not believe in your god, this makes me a bad person. I know many many people who go to church, declare themselves as followers of god, and yet are dishonest, lie, steal and even kill. I am honest with my views, I respect the rights of others, I respect the law - yet what is wrong with the world, you say, is because of hard working, honest people like me, who do not share the belief of creationism. If you represent the believers of this world, then yes we do have a problem in the world today. The problem of the world today is forcing the concept of creationism and a god on others. I do not spend my day trying to convince others of my view, all you believers should do the same – accept that people do have a different view to you and your view may not be the correct one, just as my view may not be the correct one. Anyway, I am happy person, I enjoy life to the full and I like nothing better than ‘Friday Night Football’

[EastTexasDad]

This is true, but atheist cannot come to Father except through the Son, and how will they believe in the Son when you get in their face and say "THE TSUNAMI IS BECAUSE OF YOU, HEATHEN!! REPENT!!" That isn't loving, it sure as heck isn't Christ-like, and it is completely false to blame punishment for sin in this life on non-believers.


Truth is the truth. I see you forget Noah. Was the world not destroyed due to the wickedness of man??

[BigArab]

Truth is the truth. I see you forget Noah. Was the world not destroyed due to the wickedness of man??

Is that to say that Noah was the only Godly person left?

Regardless, that was back before Christ, where favor with God was found in how good you were and how many animal sacrifices you made.

Bottom line, we are all crap. You cannot blame natural disaster or any punishment on everyone else excluding yourself. Yes, man in general is wicked nowadays, but I am no better than the man sitting on death row for murder.

[lonny23]

I appreciate all the people who state Christian beliefs on here. You are to be commended for your enthusiasm, but there is a thing called wisdom and some of you aren't using it. I've been trying to police this thread because you're doing more harm than good. Jesus loved people and met them at their need. After that, he would tell them, "Go and sin no more." He would've never reached them if he came to them condemning them for their sins. You have to show love in your words.

[The Lone Ranger]

Ben Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, Thomas Payne, and George Washington were "undefined" deists. At this time, deism wasn't necessarily defined, but most of these men rejected Godly revelations in favor for their own intelligence and reason.

One of our country's founding father's (Thomas Jefferson) wrote a version of the Gospel without any reference to miracles or a God. It just had what he believed was a great moral system to live by. Check it out here (http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/).

The freedom to express a religion or not to express one is what our country was founded on. It was also founded on a belief in living a moral and ethical life...but the US Constitution doesn't say ANYTHING about accepting Jesus before burning in hell. In fact, only 3 of the Commandments are law: Don't murder, don't steal, and don't bear false witness in a court of law.

It's official policy in Texas' public schools to start the day with the Pledge of Allegiance and a minute of silence. Students are free to recite or not recite the Pledge or parts of the pledge, but must maintain a reverent atmosphere. Students are also allowed to pray or meditate during the moment of silence. They also have the option NOT to do so.

This is how it should be in public schools: a moment of silence. No required Evangelical prayer, no required nothing except for reverence.

And by the way, our Country's motto has been "E Plurubus Unum" since 1787. That's what's great about America...we can all come together in our differences to be one America (unless they are political or religious differences in recent times...those are divisive). "In God We Trust" was added in 1954 to "protect us from the Godless Commie Heathens." This isn't a problem any more. It shouldn't have ever been added to the Pledge, but it should be removed because it is un-American...divisive to the people.

What ever happened to "One Nation, INDIVISIBLE, with liberty and justice for all"?

Christianity is a lot like Communism...it works well in theory, but then the leaders and proletariats of the group change the original ideas to fit their agenda. I really doubt that any loving, forgiving, caring God would send his son to save Earth, but only those people who profess faith in his greatness. Didn't Jesus preach AGAINST hypocrisy, not for it?

[lonny23]

One of our country's founding father's (Thomas Jefferson) wrote a version of the Gospel without any reference to miracles or a God. It just had what he believed was a great moral system to live by. Check it out here (http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/).

The freedom to express a religion or not to express one is what our country was founded on. It was also founded on a belief in living a moral and ethical life...but the US Constitution doesn't say ANYTHING about accepting Jesus before burning in hell. In fact, only 3 of the Commandments are law: Don't murder, don't steal, and don't bear false witness in a court of law.

It's official policy in Texas' public schools to start the day with the Pledge of Allegiance and a minute of silence. Students are free to recite or not recite the Pledge or parts of the pledge, but must maintain a reverent atmosphere. Students are also allowed to pray or meditate during the moment of silence. They also have the option NOT to do so.

This is how it should be in public schools: a moment of silence. No required Evangelical prayer, no required nothing except for reverence.

And by the way, our Country's motto has been "E Plurubus Unum" since 1787. That's what's great about America...we can all come together in our differences to be one America (unless they are political or religious differences in recent times...those are divisive). "In God We Trust" was added in 1954 to "protect us from the Godless Commie Heathens." This isn't a problem any more. It shouldn't have ever been added to the Pledge, but it should be removed because it is un-American...divisive to the people.

What ever happened to "One Nation, INDIVISIBLE, with liberty and justice for all"?

Christianity is a lot like Communism...it works well in theory, but then the leaders and proletariats of the group change the original ideas to fit their agenda. I really doubt that any loving, forgiving, caring God would send his son to save Earth, but only those people who profess faith in his greatness. Didn't Jesus preach AGAINST hypocrisy, not for it?
Yep, he sent His son to die on a cross. That's real love. He died for all of us whether we believe in him, love him, or accept him. We're humans and the good in religion is always threatened by man's actions. That doesn't make it any less relevant or necessary.

[raidercheerdad]

the coach was wrong for basically forcing the kids to pray. One of the great things about this country is that those founders you talk about gave the people of the United States the freedom of religion. A coach telling kids to pray is not allowing certain kids to exercise their freedom of religion. Don't tell me that if the coach said if you don't want to pray you don't have to, because no kid would ever go against what his coach says and the kid would be made fun of for it. There is no place for organized religion in athletic teams where there could potentially be people of all religions there.

I pray several times a day and best I can remember, it requires more than just bowing my head and closing my eyes. If someone else is praying, I have a choice whether or not I want to participate or not. I don't believe for a minute and I don't think you do either that the coach or anybody else on the team MADE anybody bow their heads and PRAY! Get a life -- this country was founded on Christian beliefs and Biblical doctrine -- if you don't like it there are plenty of other places in the world you can choose to live. People with your attitude are the reason for the decay in the moral fiber and 'inclusionistic' attitude in this country. If you don't believe this is what we were founded on, take a tour of the Nation's Capitol and tell me what you see on and in virtually every building that's over 100 years old. I hate to be 'obstinate' in my belief but I plan on going to heaven and taking as many lost souls there with me as I can. That requires me to do more than sit quietly and listen to this garbage! Deny that Jesus existed and lived the life that was documented in the Bible with any degree of intelligence(and no, 'I don't believe it' isn't intelligent), and I'll listen to any of you as long as you give me an ear to tell you what I believe and why! My challenge is there for any takers!

[Butch Fifield]

I pray several times a day and best I can remember, it requires more than just bowing my head and closing my eyes.

So, are these organized prayers, or are you able to do this on your own? Without having someone in authority organizing a prayer for you, you are still able to pray aren't you?

[lonny23]

I pray several times a day and best I can remember, it requires more than just bowing my head and closing my eyes. If someone else is praying, I have a choice whether or not I want to participate or not. I don't believe for a minute and I don't think you do either that the coach or anybody else on the team MADE anybody bow their heads and PRAY! Get a life -- this country was founded on Christian beliefs and Biblical doctrine -- if you don't like it there are plenty of other places in the world you can choose to live. People with your attitude are the reason for the decay in the moral fiber and 'inclusionistic' attitude in this country. If you don't believe this is what we were founded on, take a tour of the Nation's Capitol and tell me what you see on and in virtually every building that's over 100 years old. I hate to be 'obstinate' in my belief but I plan on going to heaven and taking as many lost souls there with me as I can. That requires me to do more than sit quietly and listen to this garbage! Deny that Jesus existed and lived the life that was documented in the Bible with any degree of intelligence(and no, 'I don't believe it' isn't intelligent), and I'll listen to any of you as long as you give me an ear to tell you what I believe and why! My challenge is there for any takers!
Your goal is great, but your reaction is not productive. I'm going to tell you the same thing I'm telling everybody else. Please listen to what I say, because you'll be a much more effective witness because of it. Please lose the upset words because God is challenged. It hurts him to be rejected, but it comes with free will. Have patience that you can make a difference over time. It's not a short-term battle or war. The enemy comes against us to be obstacles to non-believers to keep them away from God. He also places doubt in the minds of non-believers to question and not believe what we say.

[dragonfootballfan]

I pray several times a day and best I can remember, it requires more than just bowing my head and closing my eyes. If someone else is praying, I have a choice whether or not I want to participate or not. I don't believe for a minute and I don't think you do either that the coach or anybody else on the team MADE anybody bow their heads and PRAY! Get a life -- this country was founded on Christian beliefs and Biblical doctrine -- if you don't like it there are plenty of other places in the world you can choose to live. People with your attitude are the reason for the decay in the moral fiber and 'inclusionistic' attitude in this country. If you don't believe this is what we were founded on, take a tour of the Nation's Capitol and tell me what you see on and in virtually every building that's over 100 years old. I hate to be 'obstinate' in my belief but I plan on going to heaven and taking as many lost souls there with me as I can. That requires me to do more than sit quietly and listen to this garbage! Deny that Jesus existed and lived the life that was documented in the Bible with any degree of intelligence(and no, 'I don't believe it' isn't intelligent), and I'll listen to any of you as long as you give me an ear to tell you what I believe and why! My challenge is there for any takers!
I stayed out for as long as I could. This comment has brought me back. You are telling me that if I do not want to pray then I should leave the country. I will tell you that if you want to pray to leave the country. People escaped the present country that they were living in to come to America in order to practice the religion of their choice.

When your boss gives you an order that you don't agree with you have two choices. The first is to carry out the order that you don't agree with. The second is to quit. This is what this coach chose to do.

The radical christian right is turning the country upside down. You are forcing your beliefs upon those that do not want to have to abide by those. It is a personal choice for which religion that you choose to follow. No person should be forced to practice any traditions that have to do with any religion.

I have a big problem with the if you do not believe in Jesus you are going to hell speech that is going on. I also have a problem with the if you do believe in Jesus you will no matter what go to heaven. It seems like the murder, rapist, deadbeat dad will go to heaven if he says he loves Jesus one second before he dies, while the man that leads a good life a lot like christ led his would go to hell just because he is a different religion. That makes no sense to me.

I am done again unless something stirs me up like this.

[lonny23]

I stayed out for as long as I could. This comment has brought me back. You are telling me that if I do not want to pray then I should leave the country. I will tell you that if you want to pray to leave the country. People escaped the present country that they were living in to come to America in order to practice the religion of their choice.

When your boss gives you an order that you don't agree with you have two choices. The first is to carry out the order that you don't agree with. The second is to quit. This is what this coach chose to do.

The radical christian right is turning the country upside down. You are forcing your beliefs upon those that do not want to have to abide by those. It is a personal choice for which religion that you choose to follow. No person should be forced to practice any traditions that have to do with any religion.

I have a big problem with the if you do not believe in Jesus you are going to hell speech that is going on. I also have a problem with the if you do believe in Jesus you will no matter what go to heaven. It seems like the murder, rapist, deadbeat dad will go to heaven if he says he loves Jesus one second before he dies, while the man that leads a good life a lot like christ led his would go to hell just because he is a different religion. That makes no sense to me.

I am done again unless something stirs me up like this.
I hope nothing else stirs you up. Please understand that a lot of the people who post here are zealous in their belief, but haven't figured out how to properly express their beliefs. I'll make it clear what I think, but I'm also cognizant to not condemn others for not feeling the same way.

[raidercheerdad]

I hope nothing else stirs you up. Please understand that a lot of the people who post here are zealous in their belief, but haven't figured out how to properly express their beliefs. I'll make it clear what I think, but I'm also cognizant to not condemn others for not feeling the same way.

So as not to be misquoted and misunderstood, I'll let the Holy Bible speak for itself. Either Jesus was crazy or He was who He said He IS.

John 14:6-7

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

[Redneckn]

I just want to know why it is that all these f-ing communists want to try and change this country. If you dont like what America is or where it came from, go away. This country was founded on Christianity, you are free to not choose that. But don't force your non-belief on the rest of us. Just go to some other country that doesnt believe in God. Might I suggest Iraq?

[Butch Fifield]

But don't force your non-belief on the rest of us.

Nobody is forcing non-beliefs on your kids. Praying is a private, personal thing that is between you and your God. Every kid can and has the right to pray in the locker room, or on the sideline, or in the huddle. He can sit there for a minute or whatever it takes to pray. He does not need the government (school) to tell him to pray.

If parents want their children to pray, they need to teach their children how to pray and make sure they pray. We surely don't need the government telling us how and when to do this. It is none of their business.

[jrp83]

When I was in high school, I participated in a number of sports. The coaches always prayed before and after every event. It's a shame that the actions of a few have an affect on so many. Most people welcome prayer. The few that don't are getting things changed to fit their beliefs. The problem is that the "few" are well organized and the "many" are not. I think the students that don't care for prayer should leave the room, that way they can't be offended. What about the rights of the students who do want to pray? Why should 1 or 2 students have the right to enforce their beliefs. Again, it's ashame.

[Butch Fifield]

What about the rights of the students who do want to pray? Why should 1 or 2 students have the right to enforce their beliefs. Again, it's ashame.

who exactly is stopping these kids from praying?

[Hdshrinker]

Can you try to get your point across without attacking Christianity?


The great one is simply spouting rhetoric that he has heard....you can't blame a kid for repeating what he has heard all his life...... I knew a kid like this once.... turned out to be a pretty good fellow when he grew up. Joined the navy, became a responsible citizen of this imperilist (sp) nation.....

[SVite]

I stayed out for as long as I could. This comment has brought me back. You are telling me that if I do not want to pray then I should leave the country. I will tell you that if you want to pray to leave the country. People escaped the present country that they were living in to come to America in order to practice the religion of their choice.

When your boss gives you an order that you don't agree with you have two choices. The first is to carry out the order that you don't agree with. The second is to quit. This is what this coach chose to do.

The radical christian right is turning the country upside down. You are forcing your beliefs upon those that do not want to have to abide by those. It is a personal choice for which religion that you choose to follow. No person should be forced to practice any traditions that have to do with any religion.

I have a big problem with the if you do not believe in Jesus you are going to hell speech that is going on. I also have a problem with the if you do believe in Jesus you will no matter what go to heaven. It seems like the murder, rapist, deadbeat dad will go to heaven if he says he loves Jesus one second before he dies, while the man that leads a good life a lot like christ led his would go to hell just because he is a different religion. That makes no sense to me.

I am done again unless something stirs me up like this.

The difference between the muderer,that MADE the Savior his lord,and the man that had wonderful works,without the savoir,is GRACE (unmerited favor).In the old covenant,after the fall of man through adam,God made away to get sin off of you,through the sacrificial blood of a lamb.This was only good till you sinned again.So there was a bunch of sacrafices on behalf of the high priest,that God had set up through the tribe of the Levites.You took that blood and put it on the door post of your home.So when the angel of death came over your home he would Passover,and you would be saved.if you didnt have the blood of the lamb on your doorpost,then the angel of death would devour you(death).This went on for like 4 thousand years.God sent His son to be the lamb once and for all,which was prophisied in just about every book in the old covenant(old testiment),over 3 thousand years before He came.When Jesus did the will of His Father,and gave himself as sacrafice,he is the eternal atonment (Lambs blood) for sin.

If you recieve the savior (Jesus)the eternal lamb of God the Father,then His shed blood covers your sin,and the angel of death in no way can take you,because Jesus died your death on the cross,He took your place,my place.If you dont have Jesus as your Lord,by default you were born to the god of this earth satan.Because satan stole the dominion given to our great,great great etc. grandfather Adam.The new covenant written in the blood of Jesus,is the will of Jesus.Someone has to die for a will to take place,Jesus died,and gave us to be Heirs,to His Father,and if Heirs,then sons,and daughters.I could go on ,and on.He Loves so much,that He sent His only Son,to cover the sins of every one.It cost Jesus Great pain,on the cross,but it`s free to us,by simply asking "Jesus I make you my Lord,and Savior.It`s that easy!!God the Father is Holy (set apart from sin)He cannot have sin in His presence.Jesus is the bridge to the Father.And when we lose this sinful flesh,then we will be sin free,and be able to go to the throne of God in Heaven,and see the real life,He intended for us all along.You dont have to clean up to recieve Jesus as Lord,He`ll clean you up,with the Holy spirit.Find out for your self,what have you got to lose,you have everything to gain.He Loves,and expects us to seek this knowledge.This is the meat of the gospel (good news)this is`nt milk.But,when you become christian (in Christ)(the annointed one)you first drink the milk,then,the meat will come as you are growing up in Jesus.Sorry so long :)

[baylordad]

I just want to know why it is that all these f-ing communists want to try and change this country. If you dont like what America is or where it came from, go away. This country was founded on Christianity, you are free to not choose that. But don't force your non-belief on the rest of us. Just go to some other country that doesnt believe in God. Might I suggest Iraq?
Amen Brother!!

[Lee05]

i didn't know this was church service, but whatever. as for america being founded by christian ideals, maybe you should take a history lesson. george washington, thomas jefferson, alexander hamilton were not christian, they held philosophy above any sort of organized religion. as for "in god we trust" on our money, it wasn't enacted until 1955 by eisenhower. i'm not christian but i have looked into every religion and many many different schools of philosophic thought. what i fail to understand is why you think this country was founded on christianity? it's a proven FACT that it is not true, and i even gave you some of the most inspirational american icons as proof. where my problem comes in is the fact that most christians refuse to look at facts and are so caught up in their own ideals that just dismiss everything that they don't agree with, i'm sorry if you don't agree with it but it's the truth. america was founded on religious freedom so as to not be persecuted by your fellow people for what you believe, NOT CHRISTIANITY. easttxdad is the stereotypical east texas baptist, so don't pay him much mind, because they're usually the most hypocritical of all of them.

as for the coach he shouldn't have done that, and it was extremely selfish of him to choose stepping down when it came between his quitting or just choosing not to say a pregame prayer.

[DiamondJ2]

I always beleived in the majority rules in a democratic society, but as I grow older I realize that is not true. The NJ coach was forcing his beliefs on others. What about the few players that are forcing their beliefs on the majority? I understand the law which came about because of the few (minority) who cried the loudest. The arguement about church vs state will always be present, just like who's the best: SLC, Longview, Lufkin, etc. By the way, right now, SLC is still the best, but, wait, I'm sorry, please don't read that statement, I don't want to force my beliefs on any of you.

[BigArab]

I always beleived in the majority rules in a democratic society, but as I grow older I realize that is not true. The NJ coach was forcing his beliefs on others. What about the few players that are forcing their beliefs on the majority? I understand the law which came about because of the few (minority) who cried the loudest. The arguement about church vs state will always be present, just like who's the best: SLC, Longview, Lufkin, etc. By the way, right now, SLC is still the best, but, wait, I'm sorry, please don't read that statement, I don't want to force my beliefs on any of you.
LIES!! ;)

[lonny23]

So as not to be misquoted and misunderstood, I'll let the Holy Bible speak for itself. Either Jesus was crazy or He was who He said He IS.

John 14:6-7

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
There is one way and you have no arguments from me there. All I'm saying is that we can share what we know with others, but the time has to be right and their heart needs to be prepared for it. I've seen a lot of people driven away from God because of what somebody said in an earnest effort to help. Just read how some people here react to some comments.

Please believe me on this one, because God puts people in my path who doubt his existence. They're a different breed of person and it takes various methods to reach them for the Lord.

[lonny23]

The difference between the muderer,that MADE the Savior his lord,and the man that had wonderful works,without the savoir,is GRACE (unmerited favor).In the old covenant,after the fall of man through adam,God made away to get sin off of you,through the sacrificial blood of a lamb.This was only good till you sinned again.So there was a bunch of sacrafices on behalf of the high priest,that God had set up through the tribe of the Levites.You took that blood and put it on the door post of your home.So when the angel of death came over your home he would Passover,and you would be saved.if you didnt have the blood of the lamb on your doorpost,then the angel of death would devour you(death).This went on for like 4 thousand years.God sent His son to be the lamb once and for all,which was prophisied in just about every book in the old covenant(old testiment),over 3 thousand years before He came.When Jesus did the will of His Father,and gave himself as sacrafice,he is the eternal atonment (Lambs blood) for sin.

If you recieve the savior (Jesus)the eternal lamb of God the Father,then His shed blood covers your sin,and the angel of death in no way can take you,because Jesus died your death on the cross,He took your place,my place.If you dont have Jesus as your Lord,by default you were born to the god of this earth satan.Because satan stole the dominion given to our great,great great etc. grandfather Adam.The new covenant written in the blood of Jesus,is the will of Jesus.Someone has to die for a will to take place,Jesus died,and gave us to be Heirs,to His Father,and if Heirs,then sons,and daughters.I could go on ,and on.He Loves so much,that He sent His only Son,to cover the sins of every one.It cost Jesus Great pain,on the cross,but it`s free to us,by simply asking "Jesus I make you my Lord,and Savior.It`s that easy!!God the Father is Holy (set apart from sin)He cannot have sin in His presence.Jesus is the bridge to the Father.And when we lose this sinful flesh,then we will be sin free,and be able to go to the throne of God in Heaven,and see the real life,He intended for us all along.You dont have to clean up to recieve Jesus as Lord,He`ll clean you up,with the Holy spirit.Find out for your self,what have you got to lose,you have everything to gain.He Loves,and expects us to seek this knowledge.This is the meat of the gospel (good news)this is`nt milk.But,when you become christian (in Christ)(the annointed one)you first drink the milk,then,the meat will come as you are growing up in Jesus.Sorry so long :)
That's a very good post. You told the truth and didn't let emotions get in the way of what you said. I can't tell you how important it is to stay calm when discussing spiritual matters. People will give scenarios and ask questions, divert your attention and a lot of other stuff that the enemy tries to throw in your way. If you love them through the questions, you can reach them. We can't take it personally when somebody says something because they are spiritually blinded.

[lonny23]

Amen Brother!!
You guys don't need to say that stuff. Please don't incite more problems in this thread.

[lonny23]

i didn't know this was church service, but whatever. as for america being founded by christian ideals, maybe you should take a history lesson. george washington, thomas jefferson, alexander hamilton were not christian, they held philosophy above any sort of organized religion. as for "in god we trust" on our money, it wasn't enacted until 1955 by eisenhower. i'm not christian but i have looked into every religion and many many different schools of philosophic thought. what i fail to understand is why you think this country was founded on christianity? it's a proven FACT that it is not true, and i even gave you some of the most inspirational american icons as proof. where my problem comes in is the fact that most christians refuse to look at facts and are so caught up in their own ideals that just dismiss everything that they don't agree with, i'm sorry if you don't agree with it but it's the truth. america was founded on religious freedom so as to not be persecuted by your fellow people for what you believe, NOT CHRISTIANITY. easttxdad is the stereotypical east texas baptist, so don't pay him much mind, because they're usually the most hypocritical of all of them.

as for the coach he shouldn't have done that, and it was extremely selfish of him to choose stepping down when it came between his quitting or just choosing not to say a pregame prayer.
I'll give you that Alexander Hamilton had a lot of stuff that was outside of organized religion, but George Washington has a lot of quotes that indicate he believed in the God of the Bible. Over 90% of the guys who signed the Declaration of Independence went to church. James Madison was most definitely a churchgoer. Our most hallowed documents were crafted from the Bible.

[The Lone Ranger]

Our most hallowed documents are filled with Deistic thought, not Christianity.

Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration of Independence, REWROTE THE GOSPELS! He took out the miracles and the God stuff and the ressurection, and left in the morals and ethics and anti-hypocrisy that he believed. THIS is the "Christianity" that our country was founded on, not the Evangelical "if you don't believe in Jesus, you'll burn in hell" stuff. Whatever happened to the loving and forgiving God you are preaching? I really doubt that God would be that big of a hypocrite, especially when his only begotten son gives a whole speech about "blind guides" and "whitewashed tombs."

I respect everyone's right to believe or not believe whatever they want, so long as it doesn't harm anyone. People can be different--that's why God gave humans free will! It isn't a test, it isn't anything. It's just people doing what God intended them to. Please respect others religious choices. The non-Christians aren't telling YOU that you are going to burn in hell. Please follow the Golden Rule--treat others the way you want to be treated. Do YOU want to be told YOU are going to burn in hell for all eternity because you don't believe what I believe?

Lonny23--I really like your attitude towards all of this. You seem to have staunch religious beliefs, but aren't condemning those who don't agree with you to hell (at least not on these boards). Keep it up!

[The Lone Ranger]

The great one is simply spouting rhetoric that he has heard....you can't blame a kid for repeating what he has heard all his life...... I knew a kid like this once.... turned out to be a pretty good fellow when he grew up. Joined the navy, became a responsible citizen of this imperilist (sp) nation.....

You could say the same thing about Christians...

Most people have religion as a child, but become disenchanted as they grow older. It's pretty doubtful that he was raised as an atheist/agnostic/non-"Christian."

This board will be fine until people start quoting Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell...let's at least keep THEM out of it.

[lonny23]

Our most hallowed documents are filled with Deistic thought, not Christianity.

Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration of Independence, REWROTE THE GOSPELS! He took out the miracles and the God stuff and the ressurection, and left in the morals and ethics and anti-hypocrisy that he believed. THIS is the "Christianity" that our country was founded on, not the Evangelical "if you don't believe in Jesus, you'll burn in hell" stuff. Whatever happened to the loving and forgiving God you are preaching? I really doubt that God would be that big of a hypocrite, especially when his only begotten son gives a whole speech about "blind guides" and "whitewashed tombs."

I respect everyone's right to believe or not believe whatever they want, so long as it doesn't harm anyone. People can be different--that's why God gave humans free will! It isn't a test, it isn't anything. It's just people doing what God intended them to. Please respect others religious choices. The non-Christians aren't telling YOU that you are going to burn in hell. Please follow the Golden Rule--treat others the way you want to be treated. Do YOU want to be told YOU are going to burn in hell for all eternity because you don't believe what I believe?

Lonny23--I really like your attitude towards all of this. You seem to have staunch religious beliefs, but aren't condemning those who don't agree with you to hell (at least not on these boards). Keep it up!
Thanks for the words. No, I don't say stuff like that because I know it doesn't work. It just makes people mad. I wish everybody knew that.

[rangerpride]

Our most hallowed documents are filled with Deistic thought, not Christianity.

Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration of Independence, REWROTE THE GOSPELS! He took out the miracles and the God stuff and the ressurection, and left in the morals and ethics and anti-hypocrisy that he believed. THIS is the "Christianity" that our country was founded on, not the Evangelical "if you don't believe in Jesus, you'll burn in hell" stuff. Whatever happened to the loving and forgiving God you are preaching? I really doubt that God would be that big of a hypocrite, especially when his only begotten son gives a whole speech about "blind guides" and "whitewashed tombs."

I respect everyone's right to believe or not believe whatever they want, so long as it doesn't harm anyone. People can be different--that's why God gave humans free will! It isn't a test, it isn't anything. It's just people doing what God intended them to. Please respect others religious choices. The non-Christians aren't telling YOU that you are going to burn in hell. Please follow the Golden Rule--treat others the way you want to be treated. Do YOU want to be told YOU are going to burn in hell for all eternity because you don't believe what I believe?

Lonny23--I really like your attitude towards all of this. You seem to have staunch religious beliefs, but aren't condemning those who don't agree with you to hell (at least not on these boards). Keep it up!

Here's some interesting statements and quotes from our "founding fathers"...
Here's the Link (http://www.christianparents.com/lrconst.htm)

The First Amendment was clearly understood and explained by the man who wrote it and the man who first applied it as law. Fisher Ames wrote the First Amendment. He also wrote that the Bible should always remain the principle text book in America's classrooms. "

The Constitution of the United States of America was penned by the man who was head of the committee which created the final wording. That man, Governor Morris of Pennsylvania, was also the most active member of the Constitutional Convention. He spoke 173 times. He also advocated that "education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man towards God."

" You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention." George Washington

" Let...statesmen and patriots unite their endeavors to renovate the age by...educating their little boys and girls...and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." Samuel Adams

"History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion...and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." Benjamin Franklin

97% of the founding fathers were practicing Christians and exercised their faith in public office, at work, at home, and had it taught to their children in their schools. 187 of the first 200 colleges in America were Christian, Bible teaching institutions. Entrance to Harvard required strong knowledge of the Bible.

Hmmm.... so if the other 3% were "deist" as you say, that doesn't make a majority. In today's society, that 3% gets its way because (as stated earlier) that 3% is more organized and barks louder than the 97% percent group. So if 3% are offended by the actions of the 97%, the government no longer allows the 97% to practice their religion??? So much for "majority rules..."

I am VERY offended when people smoke around me... why doesn't the government say smokers can only smoke in the privacy of their own homes??? It offends me and makes me uncomfortable (not to mention the health hazards of 2nd hand smoke) yet the government will ban prayer before a football game because non-believers feel "pressured" to pray???

Political correctness at its finest... :mad:

[Stallion Fan]

The thing about this argument is that in the end, it will be settled.

Ditto!

[bleedgreen]

I see God all the time. When I see a beautiful sunset, a newborn baby, or a butterfly floating in the wind. Religion is based on Faith, which is believing in what we know in our heart to be true regardless of being able to physically touch it. Otherwise, you must believe that the Earth was created randomly, and that all events that follow have no rhyme, reason, or pattern.
No Christians that I know would try to force religion upon you. Christianity is exclusive of no one, and is available to all that want to accept it.
As to your statement that this Country was built on "greed,blood, and money............I'm not sure what you base that on, but I do believe the founders of our Country were driven by Christian principles, and created the greatest nation on Earth.
boy, oh boy, oh boy!!! thegreatone and dragonfootballfan---both of you need to be taken out back to the woodshed and have the crap kicked out of you from sunrise to sunset!! i just hope you two athiests are right on your beliefs or it's going to get really, really, really HOT when it's all said and done!!(and i believe in the latter!) my goodness, i can't believe what i'm hearing??? just like LPanther stated: who do you think created this world, and the universe, stars, planets, the sun, the moon??? what, evolution?? some turtles crawled up from the ocean to start life?? who the hell created the oceans and mountains geniuses??? aliens from another planet?? you guys are so cracked up that it's pathetic!! wouldn't be a bit surprised if some misfortune came your way pretty soon, or a lightning bolt--which ever comes first, just remember your statements on this board....i will say one thing to you both---don't ever attend a Lobo game...our players run to the endzone before EVERY game, take off their helmets, drop to their knees, and give thanks to the Almighty...as well as, taking off helmets, dropping to their knees, and praying for the injured during the game---that's class, brother!! if you were to even make a sound during those times, your heads would be rolling into the parking lot...your posts disgust me to the fullest!!!!!..........LPanther---one classy post, my friend...we all have our differences over things from time to time on this site, but i'm definitely with you on this!!!

[bleedgreen]

toonman...you should be called toolman!! your quick to start naming off the disasters of late, BUT(and this is a stretch)if you read the Bible, you would know that we are in the "end of times" at this very moment.....9/11, wars, earthquakes, the never-ending hurricanes, diseases(AIDS--no cure..coincedence??--i think not)......ever heard of the book of Revelation?? how about the anti-Christ?? this was all foretold in Revelation..thing is, people didn't heed the warnings..now, that this is all happening, everyone is blaming God---how stupid can you really be?? how about Sodom and Gamorrah?? you are living in the present day Sodom and Gamorrah whether you accept it or not...did you think that Jesus would stand by and let us get away with everything that we want to?? you may think that you are getting away with things, and that everything is fine in that "happy go lucky" life of yours, but it will all come around and slap you dead in your mouth 10 fold...everything hidden will come into the light, you can bet on that..i'm living proof of it and my mind will NEVER be influenced any different or change... Satan is the ruler of this messed up planet of ours...why do you question God about these disasters?? why not question satan who has come on this earth to lie, kill, and destroy what God has created......it's obviously already working with you 4 guys on here who have spouted off your athiests beliefs...that's what satan is good at--telling lies to the weak-minded who will believe him...i guess it's 4 down and alot to go for your kind....hope you see the "Light" before it's too late....but, you probably won't...............

[hornfan713]

I think that, regardless of what anyone believes, the coach should not have been involved. However, I think that there is a very reasonable compromise - have a player lead the prayer with a reading about competition, a prayer for a safe game or simply a moment of silence. As long as the players are allowed to do it themselves, anyone who doesn't want to won't feel as forced to pray like they might if the coach was leading.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

boy, oh boy, oh boy!!! thegreatone and dragonfootballfan---both of you need to be taken out back to the woodshed and have the crap kicked out of you from sunrise to sunset!! i just hope you two athiests are right on your beliefs or it's going to get really, really, really HOT when it's all said and done!!(and i believe in the latter!) my goodness, i can't believe what i'm hearing??? just like LPanther stated: who do you think created this world, and the universe, stars, planets, the sun, the moon??? what, evolution?? some turtles crawled up from the ocean to start life?? who the hell created the oceans and mountains geniuses??? aliens from another planet?? you guys are so cracked up that it's pathetic!! wouldn't be a bit surprised if some misfortune came your way pretty soon, or a lightning bolt--which ever comes first, just remember your statements on this board....i will say one thing to you both---don't ever attend a Lobo game...our players run to the endzone before EVERY game, take off their helmets, drop to their knees, and give thanks to the Almighty...as well as, taking off helmets, dropping to their knees, and praying for the injured during the game---that's class, brother!! if you were to even make a sound during those times, your heads would be rolling into the parking lot...your posts disgust me to the fullest!!!!!..........LPanther---one classy post, my friend...we all have our differences over things from time to time on this site, but i'm definitely with you on this!!!

You're, unfortunately, the reason religion is more dangerous, IMO, than good. Because of your personal belief, you stand on pedestal and condem me and others for not believing the same as you.

If there is a God, he/she or it would of been smart enough to see this coming....and if he/she or it cared they would of made an appearance, by now.

(Uh...a real appearance! I believe it was the Son of Sam who said God was a dog, and it told him to kill. Was he wrong for his belief?)

[toonman]

toonman...you should be called toolman!! your quick to start naming off the disasters of late, BUT(and this is a stretch)if you read the Bible, you would know that we are in the "end of times" at this very moment.....9/11, wars, earthquakes, the never-ending hurricanes, diseases(AIDS--no cure..coincedence??--i think not)......ever heard of the book of Revelation?? how about the anti-Christ?? this was all foretold in Revelation..thing is, people didn't heed the warnings..now, that this is all happening, everyone is blaming God---how stupid can you really be?? how about Sodom and Gamorrah?? you are living in the present day Sodom and Gamorrah whether you accept it or not...did you think that Jesus would stand by and let us get away with everything that we want to?? you may think that you are getting away with things, and that everything is fine in that "happy go lucky" life of yours, but it will all come around and slap you dead in your mouth 10 fold...everything hidden will come into the light, you can bet on that..i'm living proof of it and my mind will NEVER be influenced any different or change... Satan is the ruler of this messed up planet of ours...why do you question God about these disasters?? why not question satan who has come on this earth to lie, kill, and destroy what God has created......it's obviously already working with you 4 guys on here who have spouted off your athiests beliefs...that's what satan is good at--telling lies to the weak-minded who will believe him...i guess it's 4 down and alot to go for your kind....hope you see the "Light" before it's too late....but, you probably won't...............

Thank you for your enlightenment and I respect your vastly superior knowledge. With your great knowledge perhaps you could answer the following questions for me.

1). Where is heaven – we have sent space vehicles for billions of miles into space and no sign of heaven.

2). Where is hell, we know is not down below; as that just leads to the earth’s core.

3). How come not one soul has been found in any human autopsy.

4). If there is a heaven, do people continue to grow old or are they stuck in the time they died. If they continue to grow old, how will I recognize them? Is a baby who died 10 years ago now 10 years old?

5). If someone said that god had appeared to them, no one would believe and they would be labeled as being insane.

6). The bible was written when everyone thought the earth was flat. We know how wrong that theory was. How come the bible is now taken as fact?

7). Who has the right creator; christians, muslims, hindus, buddhists – you all cannot be right and if there was one creator, would not the creator have every person on earth of the same religious persuasion.

8). More people have been killed in the name of god than by any other means.

9). If the world was created, how come we are still evolving.

10). How come there were no dinosaurs in Noah’s Ark

Once I have the answers, I may able to make the rationale decision to believe in your christian god, or should that be the muslim god, or should that be the hindu god, or should that be buddist god. I wonder which is god, if any at all.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Thank you for your enlightenment and I respect your vastly superior knowledge. With your great knowledge perhaps you could answer the following questions for me.

1). Where is heaven – we have sent space vehicles for billions of miles into space and no sign of heaven.

2). Where is hell, we know is not down below; as that just leads to the earth’s core.

3). How come not one soul has been found in any human autopsy.

4). If there is a heaven, do people continue to grow old or are they stuck in the time they died. If they continue to grow old, how will I recognize them? Is a baby who died 10 years ago now 10 years old?

5). If someone said that god had appeared to them, no one would believe and they would be labeled as being insane.

6). The bible was written when everyone thought the earth was flat. We know how wrong that theory was. How come the bible is now taken as fact?

7). Who has the right creator; christians, muslims, hindus, buddhists – you all cannot be right and if there was one creator, would not the creator have every person on earth of the same religious persuasion.

8). More people have been killed in the name of god than by any other means.

9). If the world was created, how come we are still evolving.

10). How come there were no dinosaurs in Noah’s Ark

Once I have the answers, I may able to make the rationale decision to believe in your christian god, or should that be the muslim god, or should that be the hindu god, or should that be buddist god. I wonder which is god, if any at all.

I truly agree with #8...

8). More people have been killed in the name of god than by any other means.

...just look at the wars (Holy Wars, etc..), the mass suicides (Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc...), the mass murders (Holocaust, etc...), serial killings (Son of Sam, Zodiac, etc...), family murders (John List, etc..)! They all had religious beliefs that drove them.....were they wrong, because they didn't believe the same as you?!

Religion is a very powerful weapon, IMO, if used incorrectly! Then again, whats the correct way to use it?! All these cults and odd beliefs...it all seems creepy, at times! Also, if God is so wise, why doesn't he/she or it just appear and save us?! I know, I know....you guys will say, "WAIT, HE'S COMING BACK!"...

Well, it's a little late for those millions who died in the Holocaust, etc..!

Again, IMO!

Something else....I don't walk around telling people if they don't believe the same as I, they'll burn the blue flame! That's absolutely wrong....I mean really...WHO IN THE HE** DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?

[toonman]

I truly agree with #8...

8). More people have been killed in the name of god than by any other means.

...just look at the wars (Holy Wars, etc..), the mass suicides (Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc...), the mass murders (Holocaust, etc...), serial killings (Son of Sam, Zodiac, etc...), family murders (John List, etc..)! They all had religious beliefs that drove them.....are they wrong, because they don't believe the same as you?!

Religion is a very powerful weapon, IMO, if used incorrectly! Then again, whats the correct way to use it?! All these cults and odd beliefs...it all seems creepy, at times! Also, if God is so wise, why doesn't he/she or it just appear and save us?! I know, I know....you guys will say, "WAIT, HE'S COMING BACK!"...

Well, it's a little late for those millions who died in the Holocaust, etc..!

Again, IMO!

Something else....I don't walk around telling people if they don't believe the same as I, they'll burn the blue flame! That's absolutely wrong....I mean really...WHO IN THE HE** DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?

I must agree. From what I have read in this thread, the believers in god are persons who are name calling, telling others they are stupid, using abusive language etc. Should not the so-called Christians be more compassionate, tolerate of a fellow human being, rather than wishing death or some other terrible event. I believe it this kind of religious fanaticism that we Americans are quick to condemn in the Middle East. Just because a person does not share your religious view, this is not an excuse to not treat that person with the compassion and understanding, that your church is teaching you.

[Sloth]

Greatone the sad thing is your right. I consider myself a strong Christian but yes people using their religion to excuse their behavior is very sad to me. The Bible says that on the judgement day their will be a lot of people who think they are christians who