Imagine...

[Drake]

There's been a conversation developing on the main board that really belongs here in the Off-Topic Discussion... This is a video of a event(s) that led to the conversation: http://www.youtube.com/v/CKA37HZ7fs0

What's alarming to me about this particular story is not the guy that's running the pig races, or the handful of people that attended, but the hundreds of nearby residents who quietly support the idea of having pig races near their upscale neigborhoods if pig races have a chance of driving away Muslims that want to build a mosque...

I think it's an interesting and important topic because intolerance of those that live differently than us (any group) seems to be the theme of the day just about everywhere...

Anyone care to comment one way or the other?

[Firebird]

There's been a conversation developing on the main board that really belongs here in the Off-Topic Discussion... This is a video of a event(s) that led to the conversation: http://www.youtube.com/v/CKA37HZ7fs0

What's alarming to me about this particular story is not the guy that's running the pig races, or the handful of people that attended, but the hundreds of nearby residents who quietly support the idea of having pig races near their upscale neigborhoods if pig races have a chance of driving away Muslims that want to build a mosque...

I think it's an interesting and important topic because intolerance of those that live differently than us (any group) seems to be the theme of the day just about everywhere...

Anyone care to comment one way or the other?

I'll comment on this. I read about this story several months ago in the Houston Chronicle, when the guy was still kicking around the idea of pig races in his mind. He alleged that when the Muslim group bought the property, a group of the leaders came to him and told him that he needed to move his business (a stone shop), because it was inappropriate for him to run that kind of business next to their new mosque and social center. He was furious that the group would dare move in next door and then demmand that HE move.

Of course, the Muslim group denied this. Nevertheless, I find his story plausible. In addition, the neighbors reported that the group was very hostile and dismissive of their concerns--most of which centered around the high traffic flow along a narrow road, and the bright lights and proposed all night activity connected to the mosques Muslim youth sporting center.

Houston is one of the country's most diverse cities. Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, et. al have all been getting along relatively well for a long, long time. However, Houstonians respect your right to do what you want, but resent in the extreme any attempts to trample on their rights. Hence, the man with the stone shop was furious.

And I can't blame him. The group should have expected that building any sort of huge center would cause some apprehension in a quiet neighborhood. Andy of course, if they did in deed try to coerce that man to move his business, their actions were reprhehensible.

I won't deny that religious sentiment could play a supporting role in the conflict. And I certainly would have found a more decorous form of protest than pig races. Nevertheless, it appears that the Muslim group is asking for a whole lot of tolerance, while trampling all over their neighbors. I can sympathize.

[rwilleby]

Drake, we probably agree more on this than not...

Intolerance is an interesting word...

But who is being intolerant of whom?

Which group must be the one to give so that they are the tolerant one?

If one moves into a neighborhood and then ask those already there to move because they "might not fit into your plan" are you being tolerant or intolerant?

At what point does tolerance become something other than what it is mean't to be?

[BlackandRed05]

I'll comment on this. I read about this story several months ago in the Houston Chronicle, when the guy was still kicking around the idea of pig races in his mind. He alleged that when the Muslim group bought the property, a group of the leaders came to him and told him that he needed to move his business (a stone shop), because it was inappropriate for him to run that kind of business next to their new mosque and social center. He was furious that the group would dare move in next door and then demmand that HE move.

Of course, the Muslim group denied this. Nevertheless, I find his story plausible. In addition, the neighbors reported that the group was very hostile and dismissive of their concerns--most of which centered around the high traffic flow along a narrow road, and the bright lights and proposed all night activity connected to the mosques Muslim youth sporting center.

Houston is one of the country's most diverse cities. Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, et. al have all been getting along relatively well for a long, long time. However, Houstonians respect your right to do what you want, but resent in the extreme any attempts to trample on their rights. Hence, the man with the stone shop was furious.

And I can't blame him. The group should have expected that building any sort of huge center would cause some apprehension in a quiet neighborhood. Andy of course, if they did in deed try to coerce that man to move his business, their actions were reprhehensible.

I won't deny that religious sentiment could play a supporting role in the conflict. And I certainly would have found a more decorous form of protest than pig races. Nevertheless, it appears that the Muslim group is asking for a whole lot of tolerance, while trampling all over their neighbors. I can sympathize. Is all this happening inside the city limits? Seems that the city planning and zoning commission would have some sort of approval/denial authority, or at the very least could offer some sort of advice. I dont know, I may be way off base here, just wondering.
But I liked the mans answer about when he came up with the pig racing idea.... he said " when they pissed me off" .

[rwilleby]

I'm pretty sure it's not in the Katy city limits... Maybe Houston... Barker-Cypress and I10...

[slorch]

last year, on a billboard above a mosque on 1960, there was an ad for the NRA followed by a political advertisement for an extremely conservative republican candidate for state congress.
I found the exercise of peaceful protest quite refreshing... and all this time we've been told minorities had cornered the market on this process.

To the other posters' points, why must tolerance be something that just applies to conservative thoughts/ beliefs. i don't see any of these Liberal pundits and supposed "diversity" experts accepting my differences as a Christian. I am supposed to check my values at the door when those discussions begin. Guess what, it will never happen. I'm not an idiot about it, but i don't give in to these simpletons either, even at work.
Fact is, I know how to treat people regardless of their political stance. Some of those people do not know how to handle the responsibility of earning respect. They believe it is given out for free. I don't play that game.

[BlackandRed05]

last year, on a billboard above a mosque on 1960, there was an ad for the NRA followed by a political advertisement for an extremely conservative republican candidate for state congress.
I found the exercise of peaceful protest quite refreshing... and all this time we've been told minorities had cornered the market on this process.

To the other posters' points, why must tolerance be something that just applies to conservative thoughts/ beliefs. i don't see any of these Liberal pundits and supposed "diversity" experts accepting my differences as a Christian. I am supposed to check my values at the door when those discussions begin. Guess what, it will never happen. I'm not an idiot about it, but i don't give in to these simpletons either, even at work.
Fact is, I know how to treat people regardless of their political stance. Some of those people do not know how to handle the responsibility of earning respect. They believe it is given out for free. I don't play that game.Thats a classical Liberal tactic.

[Bobcat81]

ABC-13 just aired a segment on the issue but chose to keep it short, mentioning a meeting that had taken place with all the local religeous groups in the area to see if anyone could come to terms with what is taking place.

I have to agree with Firebird. It's difficult not to sympathize if they are going about trying to move in the way that they are, and is not a very good reflection upon their representation as a religeous group.

I think what the community is tyring to convey here, is that they are suspicious of muslims from what they see, hear, and read day in and day out, and that mistrust and fear are the hidden issue here. With all the publicity about the "two" kinds of muslim faith supposedly circulating around the world (ei; one that believes in world peace and love, as opposed to the other which seems to be taking on with growing popularity (like the posters held by extremists in London stating "kill Jews & Americans", ect.), one would have to wonder which side of that faith their heart truly resides.

To be honest, I haven't seen very many islamic groups in the "free world" stand up and publically denounce or ridicule the sentiments and horrific acts of violence that the extremists have shown. If that is not what the Koran teaches it's followers, then they should publically rise up against it and show the rest of the world that they are not a part of that religious culture if they expect to be accepted & trusted as peaceful to the rest of society. That distinct issue has caused a great deal of apprehension amongst residents in Katy, and peaceful Americans abroad.

The two muslims that say they have lived here long enough to have children born in the US, and one to have fought for this country in the Vietnam war, would suggests that he knows and is accustomed to our value system and ways of treating people respectfully. Thus, the idea that this group was demanding in their nature towards Mr. Baker, and imposing on his rights in order to satisfy their own, is aggressive in nature and would certainly raise a question of intent, let alone purpose.

I myself, have a lot of unanswered questions when it comes to the Koran, Mosques, and the muslim faith. Two years ago, out of curiousity, i tried to enter an area mosque but was stopped short of the entrance and was made to feel awefully uncomfortable about progressing any further. I was dressed as a normal citizen of society out to find out more about this "peaceful" religeous sactuary set on free american soil. Did i go there with the intent of converting to the muslim faith? Probably not. But i have never gotten over "why" any group representing any religeous faith on american soil, would try to deter a "fellow" american from entering their place of worship, regardless of faith or ethnicity. Is this suspicious? I certainly think so. It certainly would justify why our administration thought it necessary to "infiltrate" certain muslim mosques around the country (after lack of cooperation), to determine if that group were practicing on the "right" or "wrong" side of the Koran and therefore a threat to our society. It was found that there was so much of a lackof cooperation, that the administration had to resort to the on-going "wire-tap" issue still in place.

I think in order to be accepted completely, and not have doubt as to their purpose, muslim groups in america need to establish a more open means of communictation with americans as a whole. Trust and our sactity as a nation are at stake. America has already accepted the Muslim faith. Maybe it's time the muslim groups in america be more accepting of America.

[Firebird]

I want to make it clear that, although I can certainly sypmathize with anyone who feels like he is being muscled off his land and is being insulted, I also think that the pig races are an absolutely inappropriate response. I can't ever see a dispute that justifies insulting your opponents' faith.

In regards to Bobcats post, there are plenty of religious groups (and others) who are standoffish and secretive. The rites of some faiths prohibit outsiders' observations. It's no skin off my nose. If people want to be secretive and deny access to outsiders, that is their right. But, secrecy will ALWAYS inspire speculation and suspicion.

[Drake]

Everyone assumes the stone man is telling the truth. The Muslims say they didn't tell the man he should start looking for another place. Isn't it funny that our prejudice makes us assume the best about the stone man and the worst about the Muslims?

Firebird... The stone man said that the Muslims were very pleasant and very excited about their plans for the property. They said they would eventually need 25 acres, not just the 11 they had. Isn't it "plausible" that perhaps in their excitement they said "you better start looking for a new place for your business..." in a positive manner meaning they were eventually going to make him an $$ offer he couldn’t refuse? No one knows for sure what was said there.

But two things ARE for sure. The pig races were contemplated and carried out to harass and intimidate the Muslims, and it was because of their religion, not traffic, pride, property values, etc... (by the way, the property value justification was used by segregationists in the 60’s)

In fact, this hasn't been the only attempt.

Here is the website of the Muslim group that bought the land:
http://www.katyislamicassociation.com/

And here is another website put up recently by some concerned citizens in the area:
http://www.katyislamicassociation.net/

Notice the concerned citizens are even willing to use law enforcement and government agencies to harass this group.

[Bobcat81]

Just wondering,

Does anyone see a contradiction of purpose in whats taking place in this scenario as opposed to whats stated in the (Qur'an)?

Taken from the text of the Islamic faith website:

"What Does Islam Say About War?
Like Christianity, Islam permits fighting in self-defence, in defence of religion, or on the part of those who have been expelled forcibly from their homes. It lays down strict rules of combat which include prohibitions against harming civilians and against destroying crops, trees and livestock. As Muslims see it, injustice would be triumphant in the world if good men were not prepared to risk their lives in a righteous cause. The Qur'an says:

Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress limits. God does not love transgressors. (2:190)

If they seek peace, then seek you peace. And trust in God for He is the One that heareth and knoweth all things. (8:61)

War, therefore, is the last resort, and is subject to the rigorous conditions laid down by the sacred law. The term Jihad literally means 'struggle', and Muslims believe that there are two kinds of Jihad. The other 'Jihad' is the inner struggle which everyone wages against egotistic desires, for the sake of attaining inner peace."

According to whats stated here, there should have been no more of a dispute about anything if the group made it clear that they needed more land to complete their "project" and knew that Baker wasn't willing to give up his. I don't know of anyone that would be willing to give up his family's precious land that had been held for alomst two hundred years. The group knew before hand what their plans were and it's probably safe to say that they intended to manipulate the others out of theirs once they had initially settled themselves in. If there wasn't enough acreage to accommodate their plans, why pursue the project unless they had intensions of forcing someone else out of theirs?

Doesn't sound very righteous to me.

[ktCarl]

[QUOTE=Drake;409502]Everyone assumes the stone man is telling the truth.QUOTE]

Why do you assume the Muslims are telling the truth?

[Drake]

[QUOTE=Drake;409502]Everyone assumes the stone man is telling the truth.QUOTE]

Why do you assume the Muslims are telling the truth?I took neither side on what was said... I'm pretty sure something was said to the stone man that, after contemplation, was felt to be inappropriate. But the stone man himself said his neighbors were cordial that day, that HE offered them fill for his drive for free, and the last thing they did that day was exchange phone numbers. Doesn't sound like to me that what was said were fighting words at the time.

But that's not even the point because running pig races next to a mosque, while certainly within the stone man's right as a property owner, is NOT an appropriate response for ANY circumstance, especially an exchange of WORDS that one side doesn't even recall. Look at it this way; If a black family had bought the land and come to the stone man and asked him to remove his cattle from their land and they had exchanged similar words, would you support the stone man's RIGHT to start burning crosses on his own land? Of course you wouldn't. Can you think of a circumstance where you WOULD support cross burnings to harass and/or retaliate? There's no difference really. The intent of the pig races were to harass and intimidate, and they were only carried out because of the groundswell of support and the empowerment the stone man felt from the community.

Now, my guess is that if EVERY person in the community were given the facts, about 90% would say the pig races were inappropriate and (hopefully) NOT a reflection of their American values. But the problem is, if it doesn't immediately affect them, people won't stand up (take a stand) against things that are wrong...

I agree with the poster that said peace loving Muslims in this country and elsewhere have not spoken up enough against radical Islamists abroad that seem hellbent on gaining power and destroying freedom. But other than that, what have U.S. based Muslims done wrong? Seems to me they work, pay bills, have children, go to the mall, go to church, and everything else, just like the rest of us... Am I being naive about them?

[LUFPAN]

The bottom line is this........

If the owner of the property wants to have pig races on his land, then line those porkers up. As long as he's not breaking any laws, he has the right to do as he see fit whether we agree with it or not. He could let those pigs run around the track wearing turbans if he chooses to. This is still America, we still have freedom and we do not have to apologize for that. Let the races begin.........I'll put $50 down on Osama Pig Laden.

[Drake]

The bottom line is this........

If the owner of the property wants to have pig races on his land, then line those porkers up. As long as he's not breaking any laws, he has the right to do as he see fit whether we agree with it or not. He could let those pigs run around the track wearing turbans if he chooses to. This is still America, we still have freedom and we do not have to apologize for that. Let the races begin.........I'll put $50 down on Osama Pig Laden.This is absolutely true. I take it that you also support the Muslim's right to do whatever they choose with their property?

This issue, as I see it, is not about property rights or freedom to do what you want on your own land, the issue is about hatred and prejudice... In Iraq there is hatred and prejudice, and it leads to people doing whatever they can get away with against the people they hate and are prejudice against. What's different about this?

[BlackandRed05]

Just wondering,

Does anyone see a contradiction of purpose in whats taking place in this scenario as opposed to whats stated in the (Qur'an)?

Taken from the text of the Islamic faith website:

"What Does Islam Say About War?
Like Christianity, Islam permits fighting in self-defence, in defence of religion, or on the part of those who have been expelled forcibly from their homes. It lays down strict rules of combat which include prohibitions against harming civilians and against destroying crops, trees and livestock. As Muslims see it, injustice would be triumphant in the world if good men were not prepared to risk their lives in a righteous cause. The Qur'an says:

Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress limits. God does not love transgressors. (2:190)

If they seek peace, then seek you peace. And trust in God for He is the One that heareth and knoweth all things. (8:61)

War, therefore, is the last resort, and is subject to the rigorous conditions laid down by the sacred law. The term Jihad literally means 'struggle', and Muslims believe that there are two kinds of Jihad. The other 'Jihad' is the inner struggle which everyone wages against egotistic desires, for the sake of attaining inner peace."

According to whats stated here, there should have been no more of a dispute about anything if the group made it clear that they needed more land to complete their "project" and knew that Baker wasn't willing to give up his. I don't know of anyone that would be willing to give up his family's precious land that had been held for alomst two hundred years. The group knew before hand what their plans were and it's probably safe to say that they intended to manipulate the others out of theirs once they had initially settled themselves in. If there wasn't enough acreage to accommodate their plans, why pursue the project unless they had intensions of forcing someone else out of theirs?
Doesn't sound very righteous to me. It sure seems that way to me.

[LUFPAN]

This is absolutely true. I take it that you also support the Muslim's right to do whatever they choose with their property?

As long as they remain within the law it is their right to do as they please.

[kbengals]

Wish we would be more like the Australians!!!!!!!

Right on, Australia.............

"Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.

A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown.

Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you", he said on national television.

"I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia: one the Australian law and another the Islamic law, that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better option", Costello said.

Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other country. Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off. Basically people who don't want to be Australians, and who don't want to live by Australian values and understand them, well then, they can basically clear off", he said.

Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques Quote:
"IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians." "However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the 'politically correct' crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.
I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Australia." "However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand." "This idea of Australia being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle." "This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom"

"We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, Learn the language!"

"Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented.
It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture."

"We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us."

"If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like " A Fair Go", then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. By all means, keep your culture, but do not force it on others.

"This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'."

"If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.""



AMERICA,WHERE IS YOUR BACKBONE?

[ktCarl]

This is absolutely true. I take it that you also support the Muslim's right to do whatever they choose with their property?

This issue, as I see it, is not about property rights or freedom to do what you want on your own land, the issue is about hatred and prejudice... In Iraq there is hatred and prejudice, and it leads to people doing whatever they can get away with against the people they hate and are prejudice against. What's different about this?

The guy is holding a harmless swine race and in Iraq they kill you if they don't like you. Just a tad bit of difference.

My $50.00 is on Swine Flu Soo.

[svhorns]

I got my money on Wilbur coming in 1st and Babe coming in 2nd...this is freaking retarted...its pretty stupid of the guy to start pig races solely for the purpose of getting one man back... its not all the muslims he has a problem with...that guy looks 35 and comes up with a solution that a 15 year old might come up with... grow up people...if anyone agrees with the man and his pig races...I feel sorry for you...as you also need to grow up...

[rwilleby]

I got my money on Wilbur coming in 1st and Babe coming in 2nd...this is freaking retarted...its pretty stupid of the guy to start pig races solely for the purpose of getting one man back... its not all the muslims he has a problem with...that guy looks 35 and comes up with a solution that a 15 year old might come up with... grow up people...if anyone agrees with the man and his pig races...I feel sorry for you...as you also need to grow up...

Then you can feel sorry for me because I believe he has the right to do what he wants on his land, within the law and restrictions given for his land... It may be childish and it may be in poor taste but it's his business and it hurts no one... Remember, there is no Mosque and there are no Muslims at the location to be offended... Only the two guys he originally talked to, who by the way reportedly suggested he move his business and his family and then called him a liar when he restated thier suggestion, and anyone who picked it up from the media attention...

How about this... If you need 25 acres find a location with 25 acres for sale... Don't buy 11 and then start a campaign to run off the connecting 14 acres...

[svhorns]

Then you can feel sorry for me because I believe he has the right to do what he wants on his land, within the law and restrictions given for his land... It may be childish and it may be in poor taste but it's his business and it hurts no one... Remember, there is no Mosque and there are no Muslims at the location to be offended... Only the two guys he originally talked to, who by the way reportedly suggested he move his business and his family and then called him a liar when he restated thier suggestion, and anyone who picked it up from the media attention...

How about this... If you need 25 acres find a location with 25 acres for sale... Don't buy 11 and then start a campaign to run off the connecting 14 acres...
why are you being naive towards the fact that hes doing the "pig races" because it is offensive towards muslims... so because they call him a liar... he starts pig races...lol...he needs to grow up... you need to grow up...ima gonna go chill and watch the snow...

[LUFPAN]

I got my money on Wilbur coming in 1st and Babe coming in 2nd...this is freaking retarted...its pretty stupid of the guy to start pig races solely for the purpose of getting one man back... its not all the muslims he has a problem with...that guy looks 35 and comes up with a solution that a 15 year old might come up with... grow up people...if anyone agrees with the man and his pig races...I feel sorry for you...as you also need to grow up...

Nothing stupid about somebody doing something totally legal on his on property. THIS IS AMERICA, this is what freedom is all about. He should not be forced to cancel his races in the name of political correctness. So he offends them...WHO CARES? I could find plenty of things to be offended about if I wanted to be offended. If it offends them, THEY CAN ALWAYS LEAVE. That's the great thing about highways, they run both ways.

[rwilleby]

Drake, I take offense to you comparing what our Black American friends have gone through with the treatment of Muslims in today's America... Muslims are treated with kid gloves by comparison... In all categories, across the board...

I would doubt that the sight of a pig race would have the same terrorizing effect as the burning of a cross in a field as you drive down the interstate in the dark of night...

Unfortunately, I have seen both in my lifetiime and the cross is even scary to me, a white guy... The pigs are just a curiosity...

[svhorns]

Nothing stupid about somebody doing something totally legal on his on property. THIS IS AMERICA, this is what freedom is all about. He should not be forced to cancel his races in the name of political correctness. So he offends them...WHO CARES? I could find plenty of things to be offended about if I wanted to be offended. If it offends them, THEY CAN ALWAYS LEAVE. That's the great thing about highways, they run both ways.

I know this is AMERICA... but lets not get caught up in this "freedom" talk because both you and I know our freedom is slowly diminishing...I know it is legal to do whatever you want to do on your own property... im fine with that... but he made it a point to disrespect the Muslims of Katy, Tx and the whole state of Texas because of only a couple men... by having Pig Races.... and what yall are basically saying is that ya'll agree with his immaturity...so if ya'll are that immature that must mean Katy, Tx is the dumbest most ignorant place in the state of Texas...

[LUFPAN]

[QUOTE=svhorns;409702]I know this is AMERICA... but lets not get caught up in this "freedom" talk because both you and I know our freedom is slowly diminishing...I know it is legal to do whatever you want to do on your own property... im fine with that... but he made it a point to disrespect the Muslims of Katy, Tx and the whole state of Texas because of only a couple men... by having Pig Races.... and what yall are basically saying is that ya'll agree with his immaturity...so if ya'll are that immature that must mean Katy, Tx is the dumbest most ignorant place in the state of Texas...[/QUOTE}

Yes, we are losing rights because of people who get offended by something as trivial as pig races. They get offended and take somebody to court and a law abiding citizen loses his rights because we now live in a culture where we DON'T WANT TO OFFEND ANYBODY. So a Muslim says he is offended, WHY SHOULD ANYBODY CARE? People get offended every day, its called life. This wouldn't even make the headlines if it was Muslim's doing something to offend Christians.

[svhorns]

[QUOTE=svhorns;409702]I know this is AMERICA... but lets not get caught up in this "freedom" talk because both you and I know our freedom is slowly diminishing...I know it is legal to do whatever you want to do on your own property... im fine with that... but he made it a point to disrespect the Muslims of Katy, Tx and the whole state of Texas because of only a couple men... by having Pig Races.... and what yall are basically saying is that ya'll agree with his immaturity...so if ya'll are that immature that must mean Katy, Tx is the dumbest most ignorant place in the state of Texas...[/QUOTE}

Yes, we are losing rights because of people who get offended by something as trivial as pig races. They get offended and take somebody to court and a law abiding citizen loses his rights because we now live in a culture where we DON'T WANT TO OFFEND ANYBODY. So a Muslim says he is offended, WHY SHOULD ANYBODY CARE? People get offended every day, its called life. This wouldn't even make the headlines if it was Muslim's doing something to offend Christians.

Your right in a certain way... People choose to be offended... either you can take it lightly and let if fly over your head or you can take it to the extreme... thats comes with different personalities...it still doesnt make it right to blatantly offend someone and that be sole purpose for it all...the guy made the pig races for one reason only..."to get back at those damn Muslims" if thats how you do things than fine...I know I am more mature than that guy and anyone sticking up for what he did...Im 21 years old that guy is almost 40 dont you think he should know a little bit better than me...? people say respect your elders but its kinda hard when you see elders acting like toddlers...

[Firebird]

There are two different conversations going on here.

Of course it is that man's right to hold pig races. I support people's rights to do all sorts of things-- produce pornography and violent, profane films.

On the other hand, even though it might be your right to do something, that doesn't make it good, or moral. I have very definete senses of what is right and what is moral. However, I am not too concerned with making everyone else live in a way that I think is moral and good. I am far more concerned that we preserve liberty so that I can continue to live my life in a way consistent with my beliefs.

I will defend that stone man's right to hold pig races next to the mosque all day long. I will also say that I think that holding pig races next to a mosque-- even if it is in response to an insult-- is childish and offensive in the extreme. I don't see an inconsitency there.

[rwilleby]

why are you being naive towards the fact that hes doing the "pig races" because it is offensive towards muslims... so because they call him a liar... he starts pig races...lol...he needs to grow up... you need to grow up...ima gonna go chill and watch the snow...

I'm not naive by any stretch... But I do recognize his right to race the pigs and their right not to go see them... Remember, there is no Mosque and there are no kids playing there... I believe they put themselves into this position by poor planning and expecting people to just move off when they move in... Do you think the additional land they will require will sell at the same price per acre? Or might it decline...

The little rear-view mirror flags of other countries that people hang in their cars offend me... Do you think my American Flag sticker on my truck offends them?

[LUFPAN]

[QUOTE=LUFPAN;409710]

Your right in a certain way... People choose to be offended... either you can take it lightly and let if fly over your head or you can take it to the extreme... thats comes with different personalities...it still doesnt make it right to blatantly offend someone and that be sole purpose for it all...the guy made the pig races for one reason only..."to get back at those damn Muslims" if thats how you do things than fine...I know I am more mature than that guy and anyone sticking up for what he did...Im 21 years old that guy is almost 40 dont you think he should know a little bit better than me...? people say respect your elders but its kinda hard when you see elders acting like toddlers...

Well I'm 35 years old and I see nothing wrong with what he's doing. You can not state for a fact that you are more mature than this guy because you disagree with his actions in one area. You do not know what the rest of his life is like and I promise YOU DON'T KNOW ME. I spent my time in the service, went to college, go to church, pay my taxes...good all around citizen but I'm not mature because you don't agree with one of my opinions? People say that we should have faith in our youth, but when I read such ignorant dribble ......

[Drake]

Drake, I take offense to you comparing what our Black American friends have gone through with the treatment of Muslims in today's America... Muslims are treated with kid gloves by comparison... In all categories, across the board...

I would doubt that the sight of a pig race would have the same terrorizing effect as the burning of a cross in a field as you drive down the interstate in the dark of night...

Unfortunately, I have seen both in my lifetiime and the cross is even scary to me, a white guy... The pigs are just a curiosity...I'm surprised you can't see the fallacy of what you're saying here... There's no acceptable level of hate, prejudice, or harassment.

I'll agree that on the surface the sight of a burning cross at night is much more frightening than a pig race, especially to you or I... But that cross doesn't represent to either of us what it would to a black man or what the pig races represent to these Muslims. The burning cross represents intimidation born from a hatred of an entire ethnicity and the pig races represent intimidation born from a hatred of an entire religion. I see little difference.

[rwilleby]

Heck, I'm 48 and even I know I'm not mature... Plus my wife reminds me of this quit often...

[BlackandRed05]

[QUOTE=LUFPAN;409710]

Your right in a certain way... People choose to be offended... either you can take it lightly and let if fly over your head or you can take it to the extreme... thats comes with different personalities...it still doesnt make it right to blatantly offend someone and that be sole purpose for it all...the guy made the pig races for one reason only..."to get back at those damn Muslims" if thats how you do things than fine...I know I am more mature than that guy and anyone sticking up for what he did...Im 21 years old that guy is almost 40 dont you think he should know a little bit better than me...? people say respect your elders but its kinda hard when you see elders acting like toddlers... Remember, this man has worked as long as you have been alive probably, built up his own business, has settled in there and built a life for him and his family. He busts his butt everyday to make sure his mortgage is paid,and food is on the table, then only to have some Goober come in and tell him that he has to move? Let us know how you would have handled this situation since you are so mature and wise.

[LUFPAN]

[QUOTE=svhorns;409716] Remember, this man has worked as long as you have been alive probably, built up his own business, has settled in there and built a life for him and his family. He busts his butt everyday to make sure his mortgage is paid,and food is on the table, then only to have some Goober come in and tell him that he has to move? Let us know how you would have handled this situation since you are so mature and wise.

Ding, ding, ding

Bingo, Yahtzee.....we have a winner. Exactly my point.

[BlackandRed05]

This is messing up again. It keeps showing a wrong name when you quote someone.

[Drake]

I'm not naive by any stretch... But I do recognize his right to race the pigs and their right not to go see them... Remember, there is no Mosque and there are no kids playing there... I believe they put themselves into this position by poor planning and expecting people to just move off when they move in... Do you think the additional land they will require will sell at the same price per acre? Or might it decline...Stone man can do what he wants... No one is arguing he can't. A few of us are using this example, but really discussing a broader issue. There is anti-Muslim sentiment in this country, and given the state of the globe, it is somewhat understandable. But unless you support the deportation of all Muslims, or putting them on a reservation, or putting them in internment camps, or putting them in concentration camps, or gassing them, then the American thing to do (according to the Constitution) is to control our prejudice instead of allowing it to control us... Stone man wasn't empowered by overwhelming support (I doubt many support him), he has been empowered by those that are indifferent...

[rwilleby]

I'm surprised you can't see the fallacy of what you're saying here... There's no acceptable level of hate, prejudice, or harassment.

I'll agree that on the surface the sight of a burning cross at night is much more frightening than a pig race, especially to you or I... But that cross doesn't represent to either of us what it would to a black man or what the pig races represent to these Muslims. The burning cross represents intimidation born from a hatred of an entire ethnicity and the pig races represent intimidation born from a hatred of an entire religion. I see little difference.

I do agree with this "There's no acceptable level of hate, prejudice, or harassment."... But to be realistic, you know this happens every day, even though we all know it's wrong... That doesn't mean we have to like it, but it does happen...

Neither are good nor are they the same... IMO

[Miss Kitty]

The bottom line is this........

If the owner of the property wants to have pig races on his land, then line those porkers up. As long as he's not breaking any laws, he has the right to do as he see fit whether we agree with it or not. He could let those pigs run around the track wearing turbans if he chooses to. This is still America, we still have freedom and we do not have to apologize for that. Let the races begin.........I'll put $50 down on Osama Pig Laden.

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL :D Pigs in turbans.

[Owned05]

I have a friend that lives nearby (right across the street actually) the Mosque thats being built and what he has told me is crazy. The Muslims went over to the Bakers (I believe that's his name), asked him to sell them his land so they could build a bigger parking, and just about threatened him, something along the lines of "if you don't do this, we'll do this", there were 3 or 4 men that came to his door and did that. They also wanted to change the name of the street from Baker to whatever Muslim name they chose. The road has been named Baker for God know hows long and was named after Mr. Bakers grandfather I believe.

This whole deal isn't even about religion contrary to the popular belief on this board. If you've ever been down Baker Rd (all the way down) you know it's a quiet two way street with little traffic. The Baker's and the neighbors around him the new Mosque are fearful of the increased traffic and the accidents that could occur. They're also afraid of the price of there homes dropping due to the noise (yea, they ring that bell 5 times a day and its loud) and the traffic.

Drake, go down Baker and check it out. It blows my mind that they'd want to build a Mosque there anyways other than to just cause trouble.

As for the pig races...friggin' bad a! I'm actually going to the next one.

[LUFPAN]

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL :D Pigs in turbans.

Don't laugh to hard....you might offend somebody.:eek:

[LUFPAN]

I have a friend that lives nearby (right across the street actually) the Mosque thats being built and what he has told me is crazy. The Muslims went over to the Bakers (I believe that's his name), asked him to sell them his land so they could build a bigger parking, and just about threatened him, something along the lines of "if you don't do this, we'll do this", there were 3 or 4 men that came to his door and did that. They also wanted to change the name of the street from Baker to whatever Muslim name they chose. The road has been named Baker for God know hows long and was named after Mr. Bakers grandfather I believe.

This whole deal isn't even about religion contrary to the popular belief on this board. If you've ever been down Baker Rd (all the way down) you know it's a quiet two way street with little traffic. The Baker's and the neighbors around him the new Mosque are fearful of the increased traffic and the accidents that could occur. They're also afraid of the price of there homes dropping due to the noise (yea, they ring that bell 5 times a day and its loud) and the traffic.

Drake, go down Baker and check it out. It blows my mind that they'd want to build a Mosque there anyways other than to just cause trouble.

As for the pig races...friggin' bad a! I'm actually going to the next one.

Thanks for the inside scoop.....keep us posted on the race results.

[BlackandRed05]

I have a friend that lives nearby (right across the street actually) the Mosque thats being built and what he has told me is crazy. The Muslims went over to the Bakers (I believe that's his name), asked him to sell them his land so they could build a bigger parking, and just about threatened him, something along the lines of "if you don't do this, we'll do this", there were 3 or 4 men that came to his door and did that. They also wanted to change the name of the street from Baker to whatever Muslim name they chose. The road has been named Baker for God know hows long and was named after Mr. Bakers grandfather I believe.

This whole deal isn't even about religion contrary to the popular belief on this board. If you've ever been down Baker Rd (all the way down) you know it's a quiet two way street with little traffic. The Baker's and the neighbors around him the new Mosque are fearful of the increased traffic and the accidents that could occur. They're also afraid of the price of there homes dropping due to the noise (yea, they ring that bell 5 times a day and its loud) and the traffic.

Drake, go down Baker and check it out. It blows my mind that they'd want to build a Mosque there anyways other than to just cause trouble.

As for the pig races...friggin' bad a! I'm actually going to the next one. Can I bring my own pig? Hes been training and running wind sprints till the ice storm hit yesterday.

[rwilleby]

Stone man can do what he wants... No one is arguing he can't. A few of us are using this example, but really discussing a broader issue. There is anti-Muslim sentiment in this country, and given the state of the globe, it is somewhat understandable. But unless you support the deportation of all Muslims, or putting them on a reservation, or putting them in internment camps, or putting them in concentration camps, or gassing them, then the American thing to do (according to the Constitution) is to control our prejudice instead of allowing it to control us... Stone man wasn't empowered by overwhelming support (I doubt many support him), he has been empowered by those that are indifferent...

Come on... This is extreme by any measure... I only support Muslims being treated just like every other American... No more and no less... If what Mr. Baker says is true, then he has every right, within the law, to protect his interests... If he thinks pig races will do that then I guess that's his choice... If the races are offensive then don't build on the property, sell it for a profit and look for the 25 acres you needed in the first place...

I did stop by the .net web site and I will say that I found some of the things on there to be offensive to me, a white Christian male... I'm not sure some of those things will help their cause, but it's their right to publish it and my right not to go back and read it...

[CFlb38 08]

thats something a fair kid would do

[Miss Kitty]

Don't laugh to hard....you might offend somebody.:eek:

Well laughter is the medicine I need right now anyway.

[Drake]

I have a friend that lives nearby (right across the street actually) the Mosque thats being built and what he has told me is crazy. The Muslims went over to the Bakers (I believe that's his name), asked him to sell them his land so they could build a bigger parking, and just about threatened him, something along the lines of "if you don't do this, we'll do this", there were 3 or 4 men that came to his door and did that. They also wanted to change the name of the street from Baker to whatever Muslim name they chose. The road has been named Baker for God know hows long and was named after Mr. Bakers grandfather I believe.

This whole deal isn't even about religion contrary to the popular belief on this board. If you've ever been down Baker Rd (all the way down) you know it's a quiet two way street with little traffic. The Baker's and the neighbors around him the new Mosque are fearful of the increased traffic and the accidents that could occur. They're also afraid of the price of there homes dropping due to the noise (yea, they ring that bell 5 times a day and its loud) and the traffic.

Drake, go down Baker and check it out. It blows my mind that they'd want to build a Mosque there anyways other than to just cause trouble.

As for the pig races...friggin' bad a! I'm actually going to the next one.This is hearsay and exaggeration.

They asked him if they could buy his land? Is that unusual? If he said no and they threatened him I feel sure he would have called the cops, no? Him and his supporters are recommending on their website that concerned citizens call the authorities for any reason at all, even if the Muslims buy a load of dirt without a permit, so wouldn't a THREAT be a golden opportunity to get them in trouble with the law?

Ringing a bell 5 times a day lowers property values? It is my understanding that very few mosques in America adhere to this ritual anyway, but our neighborhood Christian church has been ringing theirs for years and property values have done nothing but rise. Besides, won't neighborhood pig races lower property values? Not if it keeps the Muslims away, right?

Traffic? All of a sudden some people in Katy are concerned about traffic? LOL. How did the 100 or so people that attended the pig races get there? Don't you really mean Muslim traffic?

Here is how the KIA Muslim Group describes their intentions: (from their website)

Although we are blessed with 75+ Masajid in the Greater Houston area which are attended and supported by the vast, diverse Islamic community, the mission of KIA is multi-faceted and goes beyond the typical charter of a masjid. With our community growing and our religion spreading, brothers and sisters felt the need to create not only a place for religious worship, but a place that could offer the community a vast array of services ranging from the physical and spiritual to the religious and civic.

An 11-acre property located approximately 1.5 miles south of I-10 off of Baker Road was purchased in September 2006 and it is the current and future site of KIA and it's Islamic Community Center. This property has ample space to support the community with plans for a formal masjid, community center, youth athletic facilities, an Islamic school, and Dawah center. Currently, the property contains a 2800 sq. ft. home which serves as the masjid.

The continuing goal of KIA is to provide an opportunity for Muslims to integrate socially, religiously, academically, and professionally, thereby strengthening the Katy/West Houston Muslim community and establishing dignified and positive relations within Muslim and other religious communities, civic, and service organizations.

If you reread that open-mindedly and replace the word "Islamic" and "Muslim" with "Christian" and the word "Masajid" with "Church", it sounds much like the mission statement of ANY involved Christian church in this area... Besides the bogeyman stories, what is there to fear here?

[Tigerjag]

I'm pretty sure it's not in the Katy city limits... Maybe Houston... Barker-Cypress and I10...

Unincorporated Harris County.

[Firebird]

This is hearsay and exaggeration.

They asked him if they could buy his land? Is that unusual? If he said no and they threatened him I feel sure he would have called the cops, no? Him and his supporters are recommending on their website that concerned citizens call the authorities for any reason at all, even if the Muslims buy a load of dirt without a permit, so wouldn't a THREAT be a golden opportunity to get them in trouble with the law?

Ringing a bell 5 times a day lowers property values? It is my understanding that very few mosques in America adhere to this ritual anyway, but our neighborhood Christian church has been ringing theirs for years and property values have done nothing but rise. Besides, won't neighborhood pig races lower property values? Not if it keeps the Muslims away, right?

Traffic? All of a sudden some people in Katy are concerned about traffic? LOL. How did the 100 or so people that attended the pig races get there? Don't you mean Muslim traffic?

Here is how the KIA Muslim Group describes their intentions: (from their website)

Although we are blessed with 75+ Masajid in the Greater Houston area which are attended and supported by the vast, diverse Islamic community, the mission of KIA is multi-faceted and goes beyond the typical charter of a masjid. With our community growing and our religion spreading, brothers and sisters felt the need to create not only a place for religious worship, but a place that could offer the community a vast array of services ranging from the physical and spiritual to the religious and civic.

An 11-acre property located approximately 1.5 miles south of I-10 off of Baker Road was purchased in September 2006 and it is the current and future site of KIA and it's Islamic Community Center. This property has ample space to support the community with plans for a formal masjid, community center, youth athletic facilities, an Islamic school, and Dawah center. Currently, the property contains a 2800 sq. ft. home which serves as the masjid.

The continuing goal of KIA is to provide an opportunity for Muslims to integrate socially, religiously, academically, and professionally, thereby strengthening the Katy/West Houston Muslim community and establishing dignified and positive relations within Muslim and other religious communities, civic, and service organizations.

If you reread that open-mindedly and replace the word "Islamic" and "Muslim" with "Christian" and the word "Masajid" with "Church", it sounds much like the mission statement of ANY involved Christian church in this area... Besides the bogeyman stories, what is there to fear here?

Drake, I guess I'm just not sure what you want done here. Obviously, there is a situation between this man, his neighbors, and the Muslim group wanting to build a mosque and social center. Nearly ALL the facts other than that are simple he-said-she said type affiars. Of course the Muslim group denies his story. Of course he says he is speaking the truth. Only you are have decided that if someone believes Mr. Baker (or merely finds his story plausible) then that person is bigoted or prejudiced. Where did you make that jump.

I agree that his response in this quarrel is wrong and inappropriate. If he had a problem with the development and some threats, he should have addressed them on that level, rather than stooping to the level of insulting Muslims based on their religion. Beyond saying that, what can anyone do/ Do want the authorities to come and shut down his pig races. Are you so concerned about everyone's right not to be offended that you think we should throw property rights and freedom of speech and expression to the wind? What is the point of beating this horse.

[toddg]

[quote=LUFPAN;409710]

Your right in a certain way... People choose to be offended... either you can take it lightly and let if fly over your head or you can take it to the extreme... thats comes with different personalities...it still doesnt make it right to blatantly offend someone and that be sole purpose for it all...the guy made the pig races for one reason only..."to get back at those damn Muslims" if thats how you do things than fine...I know I am more mature than that guy and anyone sticking up for what he did...Im 21 years old that guy is almost 40 dont you think he should know a little bit better than me...? people say respect your elders but its kinda hard when you see elders acting like toddlers...

are you trying to offend me?:D

[rwilleby]

Unincorporated Harris County.

Well, then... That puts a new spin on it... Those rednecks in Harris County! Wait... I live in Harris County...

[Drake]

Drake, I guess I'm just not sure what you want done here. Obviously, there is a situation between this man, his neighbors, and the Muslim group wanting to build a mosque and social center. Nearly ALL the facts other than that are simple he-said-she said type affiars. Of course the Muslim group denies his story. Of course he says he is speaking the truth. Only you are have decided that if someone believes Mr. Baker (or merely finds his story plausible) then that person is bigoted or prejudiced. Where did you make that jump.

I agree that his response in this quarrel is wrong and inappropriate. If he had a problem with the development and some threats, he should have addressed them on that level, rather than stooping to the level of insulting Muslims based on their religion. Beyond saying that, what can anyone do/ Do want the authorities to come and shut down his pig races. Are you so concerned about everyone's right not to be offended that you think we should throw property rights and freedom of speech and expression to the wind? What is the point of beating this horse.No point. Just an interesting topic of discussion for me. I'm not even trying to change anyone's mind about anything. I find that my reasoning evolves (for better or for worse) by participating in these types of discussions, just like my vocabulary might by working crosswords...

Actually, I think this is a very important issue, maybe as important as there is, and maybe more so for our kids than us, but I also realize that discussing it here on a football message board with 3 people and 5 others lurking serves no real purpose... I realize too that having a different opinion on certain matters is offensive to some people, but that I can't help. I value being honest more than being approved of... But other than those transgressions, I really try to avoid getting personal or being offensive... I hope I haven't been about this... :)

[LUFPAN]

http://gusmueller.com/images/capt.pig_races_dsm105.jpg

Just in case there are any bleeding heart types on here who have not yet been offended.

[Drake]

To be fair, that was a pig race at a carnival intended to amuse children. The pig races below were put on to intimidate and harass a religious group...

http://www.katyislamicassociation.net/Images/pig_race/pr1/pic45.jpg

[LUFPAN]

To be fair, that was a pig race at a carnival intended to amuse children. The pig races below were put on to intimidate and harass a religious group...

http://www.katyislamicassociation.net/Images/pig_race/pr1/pic45.jpg

The pig races are just a form of peaceful protest. The children in this picture look to be amused as well.

[Owned05]

Here ya go, Drake. If we're going to show KIA's web site, be sure to check out this one.

http://www.katyislamicassociation.net/

This is the original letter sent to the KIA from Mr. Baker...

http://www.katyislamicassociation.net/Files/letters/ltr1_cb.pdf

This is the 2nd letter..

http://www.katyislamicassociation.net/Files/ltr2_cb.pdf

[Drake]

Here ya go, Drake. If we're going to show KIA's web site, be sure to check out this one.

http://www.katyislamicassociation.net/

This is the original letter sent to the KIA from Mr. Baker...

http://www.katyislamicassociation.net/Files/letters/ltr1_cb.pdf

This is the 2nd letter..

http://www.katyislamicassociation.net/Files/ltr2_cb.pdfI saw that website already... What percentage of people in Katy would you guess supports such a site? My guess is about 10%. What do you think?

And I'm not sure the relevance of the letters. You say your friend said that the Muslims tried to coerce the stone man to leave, but these examples you've linked appear to be an effort by the stone man to coerce the Muslims into leaving... What point were you trying to make by showing me this? That the stone man was being reasonable?

[Owned05]

I saw that website already... What percentage of people in Katy would you guess supports such a site? My guess is about 10%. What do you think?

And I'm not sure the relevance of the letters. You say your friend said that the Muslims tried to coerce the stone man to leave, but these examples you've linked appear to be an effort by the stone man to coerce the Muslims into leaving... What point were you trying to make by showing me this? That the stone man was being reasonable?

Go read the forum on the site. Those people have got it down over there. It just seems as if the Muslims over there are trying to intimidate the neighborhood.

I'm just wondering though, Drake, what would you do if a Mosque was being built across the street from your home? Like, RIGHT across the street?

Have you been down Baker lately if ever?

[Bobcat81]

So how is a pig supposed to intimidate a muslim?

[Drake]

Go read the forum on the site. Those people have got it down over there. It just seems as if the Muslims over there are trying to intimidate the neighborhood.

I'm just wondering though, Drake, what would you do if a Mosque was being built across the street from your home? Like, RIGHT across the street?

Have you been down Baker lately if ever?Funny you say that. I lived in an upscale neighborhood just off of a different Baker Road and they DID build a mosque pretty much right across the street very soon after 9-11-2001. It wasn't as elaborate as the one they have planned on your Baker Road, but a sizable facility nonetheless. I don't remember any protest but I remember I felt pretty uncomfortable about it. Soon after it was complete one of my boys came home from playing outside with his friends and they all had Qurans in their hands! I remember thinking, "OMG, what the hell?" Turns out they had gone onto the mosque property and were playing basketball on their goal and someone came out, told them they were welcome to play, and asked if they'd like one... It's the only experience I've had with a mosque really. I will say that I've never heard of ANY trouble created by that mosque and it as well kept as any property in town. Am I glad it's there? Not really. Am I prejudice against those that built it? Apparently so. Can I rationalize my contempt for it? Not in the least...

Why don't you tell me about your personal experiences with mosque and why you would hate to see one go up on Baker Road...

[BlackandRed05]

http://gusmueller.com/images/capt.pig_races_dsm105.jpg

Just in case there are any bleeding heart types on here who have not yet been offended.

Which one of the pigs is on performance enhancing drugs?

[DragonWatcher]

Well, I see it that they have every right to have pig races. Unfortunately our constitutional rights can be used to protect us and for good, but also to protect biggoted actions of speech or protest as well. Thats just how it works. But since this is a religious issue, I just want to say I hope none of you who support the pig races are Christian, because you know doing the most insulting thing to our neighbors is exactly what the good book says to do. Oh, and keep your views against gay marriage based on biblical views that state its sinful and wrong. I'm sure selective quoting and belief is exactly what God wants.

[ktCarl]

Which one of the pigs is on performance enhancing drugs?

I think those little piggies look better as slabs of bacon with my pancakes and eggs!!

[slorch]

We had a big pot of red beans the last 2 days, with a big meaty ham bone in it, left over from Christmas( frozen, not 3 weeks out in the fridge- before anyone asks)

Like John Travolta says in Pulp Fiction when asked why he eats swine, " Bacon tastes good, sausage tastes good..."'

[Drake]

http://gusmueller.com/images/capt.pig_races_dsm105.jpg
Which one of the pigs is on performance enhancing drugs?Unless this is a trick question, the obvious answer is the one in green... :)

[rwilleby]

But... The blue one can FLY...

[LUFPAN]

But... The blue one can FLY...

That's the one I had pegged as the drug user as well...either that or he's from Krypton....Super Pig? Look over the barn, its a vulture, it's a crop duster, no its Super Pig.....

[LUFPAN]

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/461148/2/istockphoto_461148_super_pig.jpg

Super Pig.........

[ktCarl]

Unless this is a trick question, the obvious answer is the one in green... :)

Ha Ha LMAO! The Jesuits had an entrant! Strakenswine!! The little oinker looks energetic.

Get in my belly!!

[t-long20]

So how is a pig supposed to intimidate a muslim?

because muslims dont eat or like pork

[rwilleby]

Okay, I think I've determined I MIGHT be an ignorant redneck (some of you may have figured that out already so thanks for not pointing it out to me):)

So, I've been looking over the web and I find all kinds of stuff about Muslims not EATING pork, but I cannot find anything about them LOOKING at a pig OR why they should be offended by them...

Can someone help this poor old guy and direct him to where it says they should be afraid of or offended by pigs not to mention the racing of them?

[Bobcat81]

I'd like to know the answer to that myself... for those who don't think being politically correct is detrimental. Now their banning "pig" toys.. What next.. full blow "JIHAD" because you own or have something related to a pig? lol


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1494826/posts

[Drake]

Okay, I think I've determined I MIGHT be an ignorant redneck (some of you may have figured that out already so thanks for not pointing it out to me):)

So, I've been looking over the web and I find all kinds of stuff about Muslims not EATING pork, but I cannot find anything about them LOOKING at a pig OR why they should be offended by them...

Can someone help this poor old guy and direct him to where it says they should be afraid of or offended by pigs not to mention the racing of them?Muslims won't eat pork, but even the Muslims in Katy said they weren't offended by the pig races... But the stone man didn't know that... He, and most that attended (KTCarl just thought it was a cool new thing :D) thought they were going to upset the Muslims next door if they held them during one of their main prayer meetings... What was done or how it was received has never been the issue for me, the intent (which the stone man has admitted to) is what's beneath what's expected...

[rwilleby]

Okay... So the Muslims aren't offended by the pig races... It's just that they are having them because people don't want them to build at that location that offends them...

So, is it okay for Mr. Baker to be offended when stangers to the neighborhood - which his family has lived on for hundreds of years - show up and suggest he find somewhere else to live...

Here's the question of the hour... Why there when they already know the number of acres they will need is MORE than the number of acres they PURCHASED... I know for a fact that 25+ arces are for sale on the corner next to Rhodes stadium... Why not there? Or anywhere along Franz or the Grand Parkway... Why there when THERE is not big enough?

[gtowndrumma]

what kills me in this little issue is that fact that they are throwing out the whole if your Muslim then you have some connection to a terrorist organization. i understand that a lot of people have been worried about terrorists since 9/11 but to say that a muslim mosque will attract terrorists is absolutely ridiculous

[rwilleby]

...but to say that a muslim mosque will attract terrorists is absolutely ridiculous...

Why?

[Bobcat81]

what kills me in this little issue is that fact that they are throwing out the whole if your Muslim then you have some connection to a terrorist organization. i understand that a lot of people have been worried about terrorists since 9/11 but to say that a muslim mosque will attract terrorists is absolutely ridiculous

Oh? Is that so?

I'd like to hear a legitimate reason why you feel thats not a concern

[Drake]

When I was a kid and came home to a dark house I'd go from room to room with a bat or something turning on every light and checking every closet and bathroom to make sure there wasn't a stranger there just waiting to slash my throat. Not totally unreasonable because I was afraid of the dark and because it is possible that someone could be waiting, but a bit paranoid considering just how rare such events are.

As an adult, my experience and maturity helps me to reason against my fear of a dark house and closetslashers, allowing me to put myself at ease without an actual physical inspection of the premises.

I'm not crazy about flying either, so I use the same sort of reasoning to hop on a plane...

Yes, some bad people are doing bad things in other parts of the world, and yes many of them use Islam to lure perpetrators (that see no other reason to exist but martyrdom) into carrying out fanatical acts of terrorism and other horrific deeds... Like I said yesterday, I too am prejudice against Islamicists and fearful just from what I've seen on the news. But living in Houston, TX, is my fear rational?

Mature consideration would remind me that American Muslims have jobs and families and interact in society just like everyone else does and, to my knowledge, no members of an American based mosque have ever terrorized anyone in this country... Logic would tell me that if that it were this group's intention to terrorize the good citizens on or near Baker Road, they would be foolish to build a base camp there to operate from. Therefore, common sense would lead me to assume their intentions are just as they say. Yes, they bought 11 acres and their plans call for 25, but if they intended to eventually FORCE people out, would they have mentioned the additional needs at all? Besides, they can't MAKE anyone sell that doesn't want to sell anyway.
(I guess they could try retaliatory camel races or something :rolleyes: ).

Anyway, the only thing that's fairly certain is these people are going to turn a cow pasture into a beautiful shrine to use for gatherings and prayer... They own the land and have every right to do so. They also seem intent on it regardless of the resistance they receive. The pig races aren't going to drive them away, so... are the residences there going to try and at least tolerate and/or understand them, or will the acts of unkindness continue and the animosity grow until there's nothing left but hate? Because at that point they probably will think about us like the Muslims in the Middle East do, very similar to how many of us now think about them...

[Bobcat81]

When I was a kid and came home to a dark house I'd go from room to room with a bat or something turning on every light and checking every closet and bathroom to make sure there wasn't a stranger there just waiting to slash my throat. Not totally unreasonable because I was afraid of the dark and because it is possible that someone could be waiting, but a bit paranoid considering just how rare such events are.

As an adult, my experience and maturity helps me to reason against my fear of a dark house and closetslashers, allowing me to put myself at ease without an actual physical inspection of the premises.

I'm not crazy about flying either, so I use the same sort of reasoning to hop on a plane...

Yes, some bad people are doing bad things in other parts of the world, and yes many of them use Islam to lure perpetrators (that see no other reason to exist but martyrdom) into carrying out fanatical acts of terrorism and other horrific deeds... Like I said yesterday, I too am prejudice against Islamicists and fearful just from what I've seen on the news. But living in Houston, TX, is my fear rational?

Mature consideration would remind me that American Muslims have jobs and families and interact in society just like everyone else does and, to my knowledge, no members of an American based mosque have ever terrorized anyone in this country... Logic would tell me that if that it were this group's intention to terrorize the good citizens on or near Baker Road, they would be foolish to build a base camp there to operate from. Therefore, common sense would lead me to assume their intentions are just as they say. Yes, they bought 11 acres and their plans call for 25, but if they intended to eventually FORCE people out, would they have mentioned the additional needs at all? Besides, they can't MAKE anyone sell that doesn't want to sell anyway.
(I guess they could try retaliatory camel races or something :rolleyes: ).

Anyway, the only thing that's fairly certain is these people are going to turn a cow pasture into a beautiful shrine to use for gatherings and prayer... They own the land and have every right to do so. They also seem intent on it regardless of the resistance they receive. The pig races aren't going to drive them away, so... are the residences there going to try and at least tolerate and/or understand them, or will the acts of unkindness continue and the animosity grow until there's nothing left but hate? Because at that point they probably will think about us like the Muslims in the Middle East do, very similar to how many of us now think about them...

If their religion teaches them to hate Jews & Christians...then as far as i'm concerned..they can take a hike. We don't need them. After all, you hear it on any given sunday where all these ministers are preaching that muslims are on a world wide march to wipe out Christianity. How can anyone trust a religion or a group that believe "Allah" who curses that Jews are "apes" and Christians are "pigs"??

[rwilleby]

But living in Houston, TX, is my fear rational?

Mature consideration would remind me that American Muslims have jobs and families and interact in society just like everyone else does and, to my knowledge, no members of an American based mosque have ever terrorized anyone in this country...

Google search: American Muslims Arrested

Washington... Virginia... Seattle... Palm Springs... Miami... Boston... Minneapolis... New York... Cleveland... Why not Houston?

I don't care if the Mosque is built on Baker Road or not... I have nothing against those who practice this or any peaceful religion... I am not fearful of those who practice Islam... But I do recognize the possibility of concern because of the actions of the few who have hijacked this religion...

I find the pig races to be humorous at best...

I'm also not afraid to question one's motives when a square peg is purchased for a round hole... And this is a square peg...

[gtowndrumma]

one good reason is that a terrorist group is not going to be associated in an organized mosque that would attract as much attention as this one has. If you honestly think that they would go into a town such as Katy, where they would be closely watched after stating their religion, then you are insane........ no terrorist, especially at this point and time, would try to hide in a town like this with this much media coverage and with the amount of citizens who follow each and every muslim citizen affiliated with the town.

[rwilleby]

one good reason is that a terrorist group is not going to be associated in an organized mosque that would attract as much attention as this one has. If you honestly think that they would go into a town such as Katy, where they would be closely watched after stating their religion, then you are insane........ no terrorist, especially at this point and time, would try to hide in a town like this with this much media coverage and with the amount of citizens who follow each and every muslim citizen affiliated with the town.

Dang, you make it sound like people in Katy are assigned a Muslim to follow around... They're not closely watched... They've had a little publicity because of the "back-woods rednecks who are holding pig races"... That's the story line... And remember, it's not like the building is in the town square of Mayberry... It's really more in Houston than Katy... Katy just makes a better story...

I'm not saying there will be any terroristic activity at this Mosque... I'm not even implying that... But don't discount the fact that some Mosques in some parts of the country do have questionable activities and members who may have ties to... Well, other groups...

[rwilleby]

In any case... It's been an interesting conversation...

[gtowndrumma]

i understand that but in that same mindset, some churches around the united states have questionable members that belong to them as well...... its like me going out and saying that the building of a new catholic church in a remote town could attract a mob syndicate because back in the day a majority of the mafia were catholic.


it just tripped me out that when i watched the video the way some of those people came off as being scared that this mosque would attract terrorists to their town.

[rwilleby]

Well, you know how the media works... Heck I saw three or four weather folks standing outside this morning with big thermometers so they could tell all of us it was freezing outside... I just had to look out the window to see the ice on my windshield... Like it's never been cold in Houston...

I've always been told not to go driving with a Catholic... Especially if his last name is Kennedy...

[Bobcat81]

one good reason is that a terrorist group is not going to be associated in an organized mosque that would attract as much attention as this one has. If you honestly think that they would go into a town such as Katy, where they would be closely watched after stating their religion, then you are insane........ no terrorist, especially at this point and time, would try to hide in a town like this with this much media coverage and with the amount of citizens who follow each and every muslim citizen affiliated with the town.

So i guess the next rediculous thing you're going to tell us is that you know what a "terrorist" looks like right?? lol
It's pretty clear you have no idea what your talking about when you talk about terrorism, or what people are capable of when they have a burning desire to "kill".
Terrorist are just as capable of entering this place the day it's built, just as much as they are ten years from now, or fifty years from now.

What's to say this establisment wouldn't have members that in some direct or indirect way would have some form of support for Al-quida? Are you saying "hadjee" down at the local cleaners who attends this place isn't giving 20% of his earned income to some other money laundering group in Germany, and in turn having it sent to Pakistan, and then to Bin Ladin?? Are you saying that is not possible?

How do you suppose the french underground were able to be so effective against the German occupation during WW-II?? Did they "look" like underground? Hell no they didn't...cause it was the general population. The everyday people going about their everyday business. Mailmen, housewives, businessmen by day...saboteurs by night and vice versa. Ask an American soldier in Iraq if he knows what a "terrorist" looks like. You won't get an answer because they are the everyday people in public..then around the corner they pick up an RPG or some other weapon and blow your friggin head off. You think it is possible to identify someone one the outside by an inner belief? These people aren't waging a "military" war...it's a "Holy" war..a "Jihad"...and that my friend in muslim terms means "any way possible"..."any means possible"!

Things aren't always what they seem to be...or as innocent as they appear.
EVERY mosque is suspect..whether you like to hear it or not. This is a "Christian" based nation founded on christian principals and beliefs. Don't you think for just a second that there may be some regilious conflict there? Go read some history. How do you think Rome fell? An army just didn't march in and take it from them. It was inundated by an enormous amout of followers of a certain faith that soon became the majority. Rome had no choice but to succumb.

Think about all that. How many times did that guy "Mohammad Atta" (who flew the first plane into the World Trade Center), change his name while his little terrorist operation was going on? I'd say no less than 11 (eleven) times..while he visited mosques all over Europe, the US, and in the Middle East. Was he running around with a loud speaker telling everyone what he was going to do? How much cooperation from muslims do you think a huge operation like that requires to maintain itself? Quite a bit. The only idetifier we had to go on with all of that was that it was a "muslim" based terrorist organization...and that my friend...could just as easily be in Katy, Tx. as anywhere else in this country.

[Drake]

So i guess the next rediculous thing you're going to tell us is that you know what a "terrorist" looks like right?? lol
It's pretty clear you have no idea what your talking about when you talk about terrorism, or what people are capable of when they have a burning desire to "kill".
Terrorist are just as capable of entering this place the day it's built, just as much as they are ten years from now, or fifty years from now.

What's to say this establisment wouldn't have members that in some direct or indirect way would have some form of support for Al-quida? Are you saying "hadjee" down at the local cleaners who attends this place isn't giving 20% of his earned income to some other money laundering group in Germany, and in turn having it sent to Pakistan, and then to Bin Ladin?? Are you saying that is not possible?

How do you suppose the french underground were able to be so effective against the German occupation during WW-II?? Did they "look" like underground? Hell no they didn't...cause it was the general population. The everyday people going about their everyday business. Mailmen, housewives, businessmen by day...saboteurs by night and vice versa. Ask an American soldier in Iraq if he knows what a "terrorist" looks like. You won't get an answer because they are the everyday people in public..then around the corner they pick up an RPG or some other weapon and blow your friggin head off. You think it is possible to identify someone one the outside by an inner belief? These people aren't waging a "military" war...it's a "Holy" war..a "Jihad"...and that my friend in muslim terms means "any way possible"..."any means possible"!

Things aren't always what they seem to be...or as innocent as they appear.
EVERY mosque is suspect..whether you like to hear it or not. This is a "Christian" based nation founded on christian principals and beliefs. Don't you think for just a second that there may be some regilious conflict there? Go read some history. How do you think Rome fell? An army just didn't march in and take it from them. It was inundated by an enormous amout of followers of a certain faith that soon became the majority. Rome had no choice but to succumb.

Think about all that. How many times did that guy "Mohammad Atta" (who flew the first plane into the World Trade Center), change his name while his little terrorist operation was going on? I'd say no less than 11 (eleven) times..while he visited mosques all over Europe, the US, and in the Middle East. Was he running around with a loud speaker telling everyone what he was going to do? How much cooperation from muslims do you think a huge operation like that requires to maintain itself? Quite a bit. The only idetifier we had to go on with all of that was that it was a "muslim" based terrorist organization...and that my friend...could just as easily be in Katy, Tx. as anywhere else in this country.Pretty scary. So what should be done about it? I mean, there are millions of Muslims in this country, thousands of Mosques already standing, and American Muslims claim that the numbers of both are growing... If it's as you say, and even a small percentage is involved in terrorists activities and harbor a "desire to kill", then aren't the rest of us already in trouble? So what can be done?

As the United States Constitution currently reads, is it right (or legal) to take their money for a piece of property and then take a course of action intended on denying them their religious freedom? Perhaps we should modify the Constitution to read "freedom of Christian religion only"? I mean, the Taliban wouldn't allow other religions in Afghanistan, maybe they were on to something...

Your fears and these questions are similar to the ones the South faced once blacks were emancipated... Anti-Muslim sentiment is as high in this country as anti-semetic feelings were in 1930's Germany. There's not a better time to act than now... So, what do you think should be done? Surely pig races are not the answer...

[Drake]

If their religion teaches them to hate Jews & Christians...then as far as i'm concerned..they can take a hike. We don't need them. After all, you hear it on any given sunday where all these ministers are preaching that muslims are on a world wide march to wipe out Christianity. How can anyone trust a religion or a group that believe "Allah" who curses that Jews are "apes" and Christians are "pigs"??So they're being taught to hate you and you're being taught to fear them... LOL, you've unknowingly summed up the root cause of about 95% of the world's problems today...

[Bobcat81]

Pretty scary. So what should be done about it? I mean, there are millions of Muslims in this country, thousands of Mosques already standing, and American Muslims claim that the numbers of both are growing... If it's as you say, and even a small percentage is involved in terrorists activities and harbor a "desire to kill", then aren't the rest of us already in trouble? So what can be done?

As the United States Constitution currently reads, is it right (or legal) to take their money for a piece of property and then take a course of action intended on denying them their religious freedom? Perhaps we should modify the Constitution to read "freedom of Christian religion only"? I mean, the Taliban wouldn't allow other religions in Afghanistan, maybe they were on to something...

Your fears and these questions are similar to the ones the South faced once blacks were emancipated... Anti-Muslim sentiment is as high in this country as anti-semetic feelings were in 1930's Germany. There's not a better time to act than now... So, what do you think should be done? Surely pig races are not the answer...

What can we do about it?

It's a very good question. Currently, there are groups out there that would hide themselves behind a cloak of religion to conceal the root cause of their endevours. The "Branch Davidians" would be an example. Read their history and learn why govt. saw it necessary to intervene because they became extremists and threatening, enhanced by a buildup and possession of illegal firearms.

Our govt. realises that some Muslim groups are capable of using that "cloak" of religion to hide their intentions as well. It may not be as obvious to us because they choose to be more secrative and have a much closer tie to an element with which we (as christians & westerners), are just now becoming to understand.

Upon questioning, several of the 9-11 terrorist that had been arrested after their involvement with "Mohammad Atta" explained that they had attended militant training camps spread throughout the middle east. Athorities thought that since these individuals had attended these training camps, that they would all have to be considered "terrorists" by their association. The followers rebutted stating that it is the belief of all muslims that the Koran encourages all of it's followers to "prepare to fight" and defend the cause of "holy war" or Jihad. Now i don't know where in the Koran it specifically says that but i would have to assume that it's being interpreted as such because of the growing numbers of militant extremist groups ever rising in the muslim world.
So it's easy to see how they have used religion as a means to justify a cause.

Keep in mind that according to muslim rule, once a "Jihad" is announced, all devout followers of the "faith" are expected to follow and participate. If you don't, you are considered unworthy and thus suseptable to death or banned from ever having eternity with your seven virgins or some nonsense.

If you understand the bible, you understand the eventual conflict that stems from the differences between "Isaac" and "Ishmael" and those related there after. With that in mind, it's easier to understand why Christians and Muslims have difficulty relating. It all comes down to who is "pure". Muslims believe that Jews & Christians are impure and therefor are "pigs" or "apes" and in some terms, "dirty". Hence why Muslims will always think of themselves as "superior" to Christians and Jews. Americans are fundamentally a Christian nantion and therefore hated or looked down upon by Musims because of our religious afiliation. Religiously, there will never be a cease in differences. This is why you see the ongoing war with the Israelies and the Palastenians today. It only grows and continues, until it is all settled by the second coming of Christ.

What do we do in the meantime?
Hope that our government has enough sense to maintain it's Christian values & fundamentals in office. Not allow outsiders to force their beliefs to change the core of who we are as a nation. Monitor those against us and persecute those who have in mind to inflict harm on us or others that seek peace & democracy.

Thats what i suggest.

[t-long20]

what kills me in this little issue is that fact that they are throwing out the whole if your Muslim then you have some connection to a terrorist organization. i understand that a lot of people have been worried about terrorists since 9/11 but to say that a muslim mosque will attract terrorists is absolutely ridiculous

imo its not absolutely ridiculous if its possible.. either way i wouldnt want them to build a mosque in my backyard

[Bobcat81]

The "American Family Association" poll results on Islam in America

Islam and America Poll Results
Do you consider Islam to be a peaceful religion? Yes 16,924 No 214,514
Do you consider Islam to be a tolerant religion? Yes 9,990 No 220,970
Would America be a better country if it were a Muslim country? Yes 2,211 No 228,611
Should America place equal emphasis on the Koran and the Bible? Yes 6,540 No 223,730
Would it be good for America to have more Muslims in elected offices? Yes 6,528 No 223,066
Would you vote for a Muslim for president? Yes 5,920 No 224,013
As a general rule, are women treated better in America than in a Muslim country? Yes 210,246 No 19,888
Is America too dependent on Muslim countries for oil? Yes 221,247 No 8,840
Do Muslim countries do more than America to help the poor? Yes 6,444 No 222,056

[gtowndrumma]

Americans are fundamentally a Christian nantion and therefore hated or looked down upon by Musims because of our religious afiliation.


theres one problem with this statement and that is that yes, America was originally a Christian Nation back when it was founded, but in no way does modern day America follow the Christian beliefs. Today's America is seemingly not concerned with the Christian followings, i mean all you have to do is watch basic cable to figure that one out. Or maybe you can go and stick your head in the fight to take out "In God We Trust" in the dollar bill.....



so what your proposing to do to fix this "growing" problem with Muslim Americans is that we should treat every muslim like we did the Russian Americans during the cold war era.... just lock them all up till every thing has died down and maybe kill a few of them to set an example...


will this solve our growing problem and keep the muslims from taking over our beloved country and forcing a change on our religious beliefs?

[gtowndrumma]

also on your last post, throwing statistics at me is not any kind of a logical debate. Of course Muslim women are treated better in America; in any country in the middle east that practices the Muslim religion women are the man's slave. Muslims also do not have the opportunity to help out the poor because the general population is poor themselves. Their leaders or dictators really, are there to show that democracy is terrible. It is better for the leaders of the country to keep any and all money and watch their people die from starvation. Is this a problem, of course, but their citizens have lived under this rule for so long that it takes countries like America to try and go get things going in the right direction, whether that was their intent or not. This kind of a militaristic background, where if you bad mouth the leader you are hung, is not going to raise a group of people who are peaceful.


what you are talking about is a modern day crusade. we are trying to take back our "holy land" and force out any and all who defy our beliefs by any means possible

[Firebird]

theres one problem with this statement and that is that yes, America was originally a Christian Nation back when it was founded, but in no way does modern day America follow the Christian beliefs. Today's America is seemingly not concerned with the Christian followings, i mean all you have to do is watch basic cable to figure that one out. Or maybe you can go and stick your head in the fight to take out "In God We Trust" in the dollar bill.....



so what your proposing to do to fix this "growing" problem with Muslim Americans is that we should treat every muslim like we did the Russian Americans during the cold war era.... just lock them all up till every thing has died down and maybe kill a few of them to set an example...


will this solve our growing problem and keep the muslims from taking over our beloved country and forcing a change on our religious beliefs?

I missed the part of American History where this actually happened. Would you care to enlighten us?

Perhaps you are looking for Japanese Americans and world war II. As written, you are just making no sense at all.

[CoveMom]

Muslims also do not have the opportunity to help out the poor because the general population is poor themselves.

Wrong. Muslims are required by the Quran to help those less fortunate than they are themselves. That is why the Muslim "charities" are a perfect scam for terrorist and terrorist-leaning groups. Just a little tidbit I learned from a fellow student who was a Saudi Arabian Sergeant Major while I was in Fixed Station Radio Repair School at Fort Gordon, GA in 1978.


As to the "crusade" part of your post. Notice, I deleted it from my reply. No comment.

[KT2000]

Bobcat, here's a direct passage from the Koran:

Sura 9:29- "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, [even if they are] of the people of the Book, until they pay the Jizya [a special higher tax rate] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

"People of the Book" is how the Koran refers to Christians and Jews.

Islam does favorably acknowledge pieces of both Jewish and Christian faith, but view them as impure interpretations overall as you cited.

The latest religious census I've seen (from: "Religion Facts")

Christians in the US: 159 million
Muslims in the US: 1.1 million

Christians in the World: 2 billion
Muslims in the World: 1.3 billion

They also state Islam is the fastest growing religion in the World, and has grown 235% in the last 50 years.

[Bobcat81]

theres one problem with this statement and that is that yes, America was originally a Christian Nation back when it was founded, but in no way does modern day America follow the Christian beliefs. Today's America is seemingly not concerned with the Christian followings, i mean all you have to do is watch basic cable to figure that one out. Or maybe you can go and stick your head in the fight to take out "In God We Trust" in the dollar bill.....



so what your proposing to do to fix this "growing" problem with Muslim Americans is that we should treat every muslim like we did the Russian Americans during the cold war era.... just lock them all up till every thing has died down and maybe kill a few of them to set an example...


will this solve our growing problem and keep the muslims from taking over our beloved country and forcing a change on our religious beliefs?


Ha Ha...Hey kid, has your comprehension level gone down the tube or what?

Why don't you educate me and tell me just what America did to "Russian Americans" during the cold war???????

Do you even know when the "cold war" was...or what it was about??

What you should do is go back and read what i posted entirely instead of breaking down each sentence word for word and causing yourself confusion.

Do i sound like i'm one of those "haters" that wants the word "GOD" removed from our text & phrases? I'm pretty sure it's clear that i support our nation on the beliefs it was founded under thank you. In the mean time, i'd like to hear your response to the "Russian American" statement you made.

How did we treat them????

[Bobcat81]

Bobcat, here's a direct passage from the Koran:

Sura 9:29- "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, [even if they are] of the people of the Book, until they pay the Jizya [a special higher tax rate] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

"People of the Book" is how the Koran refers to Christians and Jews.

Islam does favorably acknowledge pieces of both Jewish and Christian faith, but view them as impure interpretations overall as you cited.

The latest religious census I've seen (from: "Religion Facts")

Christians in the US: 159 million
Muslims in the US: 1.1 million

Christians in the World: 2 billion
Muslims in the World: 1.3 billion

They also state Islam is the fastest growing religion in the World, and has grown 235% in the last 50 years.

Interesting bit of information KT. Thanks. Do you have access, or is it possible to post some detailed stats that would indicate how many muslims in the world are under a "dictatorship", or similar form of government??

[KT2000]

Differences in religion obviously have a lot to do with the conflict historically, and sketchy foreign policy has certainly fanned those flames in all directions in the last 100 years.

1948 happened, for one. The United Nations takes shape, and the newly formed Israel becomes the first Jewish state in almost 2,000 years as a result with the USA as its foremost supporter. Talk about throwing off the balance of a region. Palestinians call it "The Catastrophe" and obviously still hold a grudge to this day. Thousands upon thousands were displaced from their homes with no where to go, and were thus relegated to pockets of land. I'm sure Native Americans can relate to that a little bit.

These foreign policy "boons" continued through the Cold War when the United States' CIA (as authorized by the government) provided intellgence, money and weaponry to a small band of radical Islamic soldiers called Mujahedeen in their fight to drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan in the late 70s, early 80s. This is all very well documented in the book Ghost Wars by Steve Coll.

The United States and UN obviously remain very active today in Middle East affairs. The results of our foreign policy and that of the UN collectively over the last 50+ years has greatly shaped the current conflict in my opinion. I'm not saying we're solely responsible for the hatred, but we seem to have a way of helping create our own worst enemies.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Differences in religion obviously have a lot to do with the conflict historically, and sketchy foreign policy has certainly fanned those flames in all directions in the last 100 years.

1948 happened. The United Nations takes shape, and the newly formed Israel becomes the first Jewish state in almost 2,000 years as a result. Talk about throwing off the balance of a region. Palestinians call it "The Catastrophe" and obviously still hold a grudge to this day. Thousands upon thousands were displaced from their homes with no where to go, and were thus relegated to pockets of land. I'm sure Native Americans can relate to that a little bit.

These foreign policy "boons" continued through the Cold War when the United States' CIA (as authorized by the government) provided intellgence, money and weaponry to a small band of radical Islamic soldiers called Mujahedeen in their fight to drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan in the late 70s, early 80s. This is all very well documented in the book Ghost Wars by Steve Coll.

The United States and UN are obviously remain very active today in Middle East affairs. The results of our foreign policy and that of the UN collectively over the last 50+ years has greatly shaped the current conflict in my opinion.

And to think - much like our ancestors on territorial discretions of Pre-U.S. land - if there were no economical interests - predominantly oil - in the Middle East region, the U.S. could care less of it's inhabitants' fundamental and/or religious well-being. Thus the political (military) "bretheren" stance shown by the U.S would be non-excistent.

The politics of New-Rome. Good post, KT2000.

[Firebird]

Differences in religion obviously have a lot to do with the conflict historically, and sketchy foreign policy has certainly fanned those flames in all directions in the last 100 years.

1948 happened, for one. The United Nations takes shape, and the newly formed Israel becomes the first Jewish state in almost 2,000 years as a result with the USA as its foremost supporter. Talk about throwing off the balance of a region. Palestinians call it "The Catastrophe" and obviously still hold a grudge to this day. Thousands upon thousands were displaced from their homes with no where to go, and were thus relegated to pockets of land. I'm sure Native Americans can relate to that a little bit.

These foreign policy "boons" continued through the Cold War when the United States' CIA (as authorized by the government) provided intellgence, money and weaponry to a small band of radical Islamic soldiers called Mujahedeen in their fight to drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan in the late 70s, early 80s. This is all very well documented in the book Ghost Wars by Steve Coll.

The United States and UN obviously remain very active today in Middle East affairs. The results of our foreign policy and that of the UN collectively over the last 50+ years has greatly shaped the current conflict in my opinion. I'm not saying we're solely responsible for the hatred, but we seem to have a way of helping create our own worst enemies.


Time for a quick history check. First of all, the United States had little to nothing to do with the slow process of Jewish immigration to Palestine that began in the late nineteenth century and continued up through 1940, and then later after the Holocaust. During much of this time period the British, in accordance with the Balfour Declaration, gave much of the assistance to the Jews.

The United States did vote for the 1947 partition plan, along with 33 other countries in the UN General Assembly, which divided Palestine thusly: 55% Jewish, 45% Arab, with Jerusalem to be internationally governed. This set of fpogroms and attacks by Arabs against Jews all over the region, touching off the 1948 war.

Throughout the 1948 war, the United States remained aloof, and an interesting little forgotten tidbit-- the Soviet Union, through it's proxy state of Czechoslovakia sold and supplied the nascent Israeli Army with the weapons to defeat their Arab foes in the war. Britain and the Soviet Union had a far greater role in ensuring the establishment of Israel than the USA. Another tidbit-- Israel offered all Arab residents of Palestine "full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions", which they refused on the advice of Arab generals. To be fair, there are documented cases of forced expulsion. Following the war, the Arab states surrounding Israel have to this day refused to offer the "displaced" Palestinians full membership and acceptance in their socieites, despite the fact that they encouraged them to reject Israeli citizenship in the first place. The extermination of the Native Americans this was not.

The Soviet Union then shrewdly changed horses mid-stream, becoming the benefactors of various fledgling Arab Nationalist movements across the mid-east. The United States, seeking to counter the influence of the USSR, and in accordance with our longstanding principals of supporting democracies and liberal government as opposed to tyranny, cultivated a special relationship with Israel.

The myth that the United States created Israel is just that-- a myth and a lie fomented by dictators. One of its primary uses is to direct attention away from the myriad outrages commited by middle east dictators on their own citizens. The United States longstanding commitment to ensure Israel's security stems from an understanding of the truth of the matter, which is that Israel is the only free, open, and predictable partner in a region noted for oppression and violence. In addition, no one should delude themselves into thinking that by abandoning our support of Israel, the United States would enter a new era of peace and cooperation in the middle east.

[KT2000]

For the record, I did not say that the US created Israel. We were definitely one of the foremost supporters (if not the most- whether it be financial, political, moral, etc.) of its existence as noted above, and we obviously remain so to this day. Obviously, the degree of support doesn't matter to the Middle East radicals who want to destroy Israel, America, and other supporters with it. Whet