what dynasty has had the best run?

[jrock210]

who do u think is well deserving to be known as the greatest state powerhouse from the past?:confused:

[tigerdback083]

a few come to mind

Odessa Permian
Judson
and most recently Southlake

[jrock210]

i remembered to put those
butr i believe lewisville ahd 2 so theey should get some credit in my book

[tigerdback083]

Wow i had a brain fart and totally didnt see the poll. Guess we were on the same page though

[too playa]

in other words..."how many of you think judson is the greatest state powerhouse of the past"

works better if you just get to the point. :eek:

[jrock210]

in other words..."how many of you think judson is the greatest state powerhouse of the past"

works better if you just get to the point. :eek:
thats not what i said...i used alot of other teams and i made this easier for ppl that dont care for any of these teams and put other

[HookEm1798]

in other words..."how many of you think judson is the greatest state powerhouse of the past"

works better if you just get to the point. :eek:


hahaha so true of this topic

[mojotrain]

Another one of these?:eek:

Odessa Permian

[too playa]

thats not what i said...i used alot of other teams and i made this easier for ppl that dont care for any of these teams and put other

well to realistically answer your question...... I really dont know the answer... i think Permian helped really put a stamp on texas HS football.. but have they done enough to be considered a powerhouse?? Judson has a good long standing record.. i think they could be well justified in this particular matter...Southlake... could also be mentioned.. especially with thier recent success.. but does just recent success do it? or longevity?... I think its hard to say .. but as far as powerhouse.. does that mean state titles?wins? or consistency? But judson could be mentioned among this group and i would not even have a problem with it... and could be the best.. depending on the criteria....:eek:

[LoneRocket]

who do u think is well deserving to be known as the greatest state powerhouse from the past?:confused:
Let it go.

[jrock210]

:D lol i was just ondering honestly i think there are a few ppl that should be up there but since they won 1 title or somethin they arent i just looked up in the state championships link in this iste and counted each teams championships and put a few of the ones i cnsidered powerhouses

[mojotrain]

well to realistically answer your question...... I really dont know the answer... i think Permian helped really put a stamp on texas HS football.. but have they done enough to be considered a powerhouse?? Judson has a good long standing record.. i think they could be well justified in this particular matter...Southlake... could also be mentioned.. especially with thier recent success.. but does just recent success do it? or longevity?... I think its hard to say .. but as far as powerhouse.. does that mean state titles?wins? or consistency? But judson could be mentioned among this group and i would not even have a problem with it... and could be the best.. depending on the criteria....:eek:

Exactly playa. The question needs be a little more specific. Like for all time? just the 60s, just the 70's just the 80's and so on or any two decades or any three decades or up to 7 decades. Then consider what class, only 5-A? or teams that were big schools in 4-A before there was a 5-A, or schools that were small 2-A then 3-A, then 4-a and 5-A.

This has been started a number of times and its left as so broad of a question a lot of teams have arguments and they all win. Of course most of the posters can't remember teams of the 40s and 50s so they won't get a lot of print unless the question intends to include them.

Just watch, this string will veer into, strength of schedules or districts, number of pro players put out by schools and yadda dadda da.

Its a good topic but just really has no answer as it can't be defined. If its re-worded then actual records which can be documented can be used. Otherwise its just a pissing contest.

[cyfallsbooster2]

who do u think is well deserving to be known as the greatest state powerhouse from the past?:confused:
We really have to study your question in order to answer this. Who is deserving?....Only Permian and SLC. Of the past?....Only Permian. So I guess Judson has to go home in this poll.

[jrock210]

Exactly playa. The question needs be a little more specific. Like for all time? just the 60s, just the 70's just the 80's and so on or any two decades or any three decades or up to 7 decades. Then consider what class, only 5-A? or teams that were big schools in 4-A before there was a 5-A, or schools that were small 2-A then 3-A, then 4-a and 5-A.

This has been started a number of times and its left as so broad of a question a lot of teams have arguments and they all win. Of course most of the posters can't remember teams of the 40s and 50s so they won't get a lot of print unless the question intends to include them.

Just watch, this string will veer into, strength of schedules or districts, number of pro players put out by schools and yadda dadda da.

Its a good topic but just really has no answer as it can't be defined. If its re-worded then actual records which can be documented can be used. Otherwise its just a pissing contest.
ok out of the 4 teams listed...who did u think had the best team dynasty (take strength of schedule considerably because some skool have to try harder with better district)...this is only for 5A teams in the "other" pole answer because this is a 5A texas football forum

[jrock210]

let me lay some stats down...
that i know of in 5A football

Permian has 4 championships out of 6 trips
Judson has 6 championships out of 10 trips
Plano has 3 champinships out of 4 trips
SLC has 3 championships out of 4 trips


Against these 4 teams in the state finals...
1- Permian is 0 and 1 with a 31- 28 loss to Judson
2-Judson is 2 and 0 with a 36-13 win over Plano and a 31- 28 win over Permian
3-Plano is 0 and 1 with a 36-13 loss th Judson
4- SLC has not played any of these teams in the state finals (and there is a chace they will this yr)

[FarmerFootballPlayer]

I'm not ready to say the Lewisville is the most sucessful 5A Football program ever, and certainly not since Hebron's opening in 1999. However, over the years, they have been a domanant force on the statewide level. I think they certaionly deserved to be considered an all time great program, even though it's hitting a bit of a rough patch after the talent split.

If I had to say best program ever... There are so many ways to judge that, it's hard to choose one.

[jrock210]

I'm not ready to say the Lewisville is the most sucessful 5A Football program ever, and certainly not since Hebron's opening in 1999. However, over the years, they have been a domanant force on the statewide level. I think they certaionly deserved to be considered an all time great program, even though it's hitting a bit of a rough patch after the talent split.

If I had to say best program ever... There are so many ways to judge that, it's hard to choose one.
i was actually thinking about puttin them up there but i figured most teams that r dynasties have won state more than twice...they won it in 1996 and 1993 and now they arent heard of in state games

[SeguinMatadors]

in other words..."how many of you think judson is the greatest state powerhouse of the past"

works better if you just get to the point. :eek:

Pretty much... lmfao

[jrock210]

thats all ppl think of the judson fans its funny

[farmerfan]

I'm not ready to say the Lewisville is the most sucessful 5A Football program ever, and certainly not since Hebron's opening in 1999. However, over the years, they have been a domanant force on the statewide level. I think they certaionly deserved to be considered an all time great program, even though it's hitting a bit of a rough patch after the talent split.

If I had to say best program ever... There are so many ways to judge that, it's hard to choose one.


FFP
What players that are currently playing for Hebron would have wore the maroon and white?
Hebron took solely away from The Colony and nobody away from us. The opening of FMHS is what took away a once strong talented area we drew from. THe Forrest Wood Middle school area south of Main street along Morris Road.
We also had a great run but nothing compared to what other programs have had.

[farmerfan]

i was actually thinking about puttin them up there but i figured most teams that r dynasties have won state more than twice...they won it in 1996 and 1993 and now they arent heard of in state games


i agree with you.

shocked? ;)

[FarmerFootballPlayer]

Yeah. I'd put them on the level just below the likes of Judson, Southlake, Permian, ect.

And only because of their lack of state titles.

However, I think we're going in the right direction. If things go right for the rest of this year, we'll be back in the playoffs. Our JV is 5-1-1, including wins over Hebron and Coppell. I'm sure that once the Spread is implemented, that we'll be a perrenial playoff team again. However, to compete for a state title, we'd need a very good class of players, and some help from other teams.

[farmerfan]

Yeah. I'd put them on the level just below the likes of Judson, Southlake, Permian, ect.

And only because of their lack of state titles.

However, I think we're going in the right direction. If things go right for the rest of this year, we'll be back in the playoffs. Our JV is 5-1-1, including wins over Hebron and Coppell. I'm sure that once the Spread is implemented, that we'll be a perrenial playoff team again. However, to compete for a state title, we'd need a very good class of players, and some help from other teams.


I know this freshman class is very talented and the sophomores arent bad either. Hopefully they can keep improving and buy into Coach Gaddis system. I also wouldnt mind seeing Stphen Stamey get a few more snaps at the QB spot. What ever happend to Jordan Dotson?

[NSStangs#1fan]

Well what about Katy???

[FarmerFootballPlayer]

Jordan Dotson got hurt pretty early in the year. I'm pretty sure he is done for the year.

[farmerfan]

Well what about Katy???


should be on any list when considering dynasties. their resume speaks volumes.

[farmerfan]

Jordan Dotson got hurt pretty early in the year. I'm pretty sure he is done for the year.


i hate hearing that. played baseball with his brother for years, I can remember when that kid (jordan) was born and a terror at the age of 3-4 during our baseball games. hopefully he will be able to recover from whatever his injury is.

[NSStangs#1fan]

should be on any list when considering dynasties. their resume speaks volumes.
I second that!

[FarmerFootballPlayer]

I agree. Any team that can claim to have beaten SLC in the 21st Century deserves to be considered a powerhouse.

[bleedblue]

LD Bell were the Atlanta Braves of high school football. Many great seasons and playoff runs, 0 championships

[FarmerFootballPlayer]

LD Bell were the Atlanta Braves of high school football. Many great seasons and playoff runs, 0 championships

Somehow, with the type of atheletes we have, that could be the Lewisville of the future. Winning recoirds and all that, even some playoff wins. But it's hard for me to forsee another title for the Farmers.

[farmerfan]

Somehow, with the type of atheletes we have, that could be the Lewisville of the future. Winning recoirds and all that, even some playoff wins. But it's hard for me to forsee another title for the Farmers.


lets get to that winning record first. that could be a huge building block for those kids to go into off-season with. Heck even if we finished 5-5 it's much better than the 1-9 of a year ago.

[lonny23]

thats all ppl think of the judson fans its funny
Most of the time in the sports arena, you're doing something well when you start getting hate from others.

[DragonBand06]

When people think of a traditional Texas Powerhouse, they think (or at least I do) Permian.
If people look back several years from now and think SLC, then I'll say Permian/SLC... but as far as 5A goes, Permian sticks out in my mind.

[stevefoxsc]

temple is 1-0 agaisnt judson! so they should be atop the list!

[farmerfan]

temple is 1-0 agaisnt judson! so they should be atop the list!


actually you are 1-1 againt Judson. They defeated you in 1993.

[lonny23]

temple is 1-0 agaisnt judson! so they should be atop the list!
Not so fast my friend. They're not 1-0 against Judson. If you're going to throw jabs, they have to be correct jabs!:D

Judson beat Temple 30-6 in 1998 and 21-9 in 1999.

I would check for other years, but this software blocks me from checking Judson year-by-year. Judson also beat Temple in 1993 after they lost to them in 1992. Waco does have a winning record vs. Judson. They're 3-1.

[lonny23]

actually you are 1-1 againt Judson. They defeated you in 1993.
Wrong! You shouldn't speculate on stuff like this if you're not looking it up.

[jrock89]

who do u think is well deserving to be known as the greatest state powerhouse from the past?:confused:

Judson, Permian and Plano all-time. SLC recent success over the last 4 years is unprecedented, even by the other three. Judson's run from 1988-1998 was phenomenal. Inconsistantly great since.

[lonny23]

Judson, Permian and Plano all-time. SLC recent success over the last 4 years is unprecedented, even by the other three. Judson's run from 1988-1998 was phenomenal. Inconsistantly great since.
I just think Judson hit a lull from 99-01. They haven't won quite as many games since 02, but they've been playing very deep even if they only have 1 title to show for it. 02-05 doesn't compare to 88-98 for Judson, but almost every team in Texas would be happy with the current run.

[ttech10]

How are we defining the word "Dynasty" because I would consider Midland Lee to have once been a dynasty 3 straight State Championships from 98, 99, and 2000.

[WOS87]

http://members.aol.com/cboehme/thsf/dynasty1.gif
http://members.aol.com/cboehme/thsf/dynasty2.gif
http://members.aol.com/cboehme/thsf/dynasty3.gif

[lonny23]

http://members.aol.com/cboehme/thsf/dynasty1.gif
http://members.aol.com/cboehme/thsf/dynasty2.gif
http://members.aol.com/cboehme/thsf/dynasty3.gif
Thanks for the list. Permian, Plano, and Judson would be on the list for a few more years beyond what you listed.

[Dragon20]

I see SLC in the top 4 in every field, but 7 what other team is in the top four that many times?

[Dragon20]

Also in the last 27 seasons Southlake has missed the playoffs just 5 times. Can you give me another team with that record?

[jrock210]

on tahts list judson was the most consistent seeing how many tms they are up there but slc was working in there a bit

[maxtor]

on tahts list judson was the most consistent seeing how many tms they are up there but slc was working in there a bit

SLC a bit? SLC was in the top 4 20 times on the list with Judson being in the yop 4 only 17 times. Not that this the criteria for Dynasty but to say "SLC was in there a bit" isnt correct.

Everyone one has there own idea of what dynasty means certainly. But SLC can at least be considered to be among the top 1-4 on just about anyones list taking in consideration their 6 titles. And to say that 3 of those dont count because they were in 3A is disengenuous. Plano only won 3 of their titles in 5A.

The difference here is that SLC is currently on fire while Plano/Permian are not going to add to their dynasty status any time soon. Judson is hit and miss but gets to play laredo jr high in the playoffs so they could show up at state whenever. Katy is a bit behind I think in the dynasty dept though. This leaves SLC in a position that IF they were to continue as they are now it wont be long before they are undisputed in anyones book as being the #1 dynasty.

My gosh, as I was looking at state titles I noticed a little something.

Since 1980 the north has won 27 5A titles and the southern teams only 15? Not only that but if you take away Carters forfiet the number would have been 28-14!
More telling in that if you take away Judsons 6 title years(assuming that the uil didnt hand out a title that year) this only leaves the entire south with only 9 titles out of the remaining 36 title games! Wow, the south has had 2 dyanasties judson and katy and they are a collective 8-8 against the north in ttle games.

[lonny23]

Also in the last 27 seasons Southlake has missed the playoffs just 5 times. Can you give me another team with that record?
Yeah, they're called Converse Judson. Since 1977 and the beginning of Diamond J on the helmets, the Rockets have made the playoffs every year except:

1980
1981
1999
2003

After this week, it will be 26 times in the last 30 years. Yates has a bunch of playoff appearances in a row.

[lonny23]

SLC a bit? SLC was in the top 4 20 times on the list with Judson being in the yop 4 only 17 times. Not that this the criteria for Dynasty but to say "SLC was in there a bit" isnt correct.

Everyone one has there own idea of what dynasty means certainly. But SLC can at least be considered to be among the top 1-4 on just about anyones list taking in consideration their 6 titles. And to say that 3 of those dont count because they were in 3A is disengenuous. Plano only won 3 of their titles in 5A.

The difference here is that SLC is currently on fire while Plano/Permian are not going to add to their dynasty status any time soon. Judson is hit and miss but gets to play laredo jr high in the playoffs so they could show up at state whenever. Katy is a bit behind I think in the dynasty dept though. This leaves SLC in a position that IF they were to continue as they are now it wont be long before they are undisputed in anyones book as being the #1 dynasty.

My gosh, as I was looking at state titles I noticed a little something.

Since 1980 the north has won 27 5A titles and the southern teams only 15? Not only that but if you take away Carters forfiet the number would have been 28-14!
More telling in that if you take away Judsons 6 title years(assuming that the uil didnt hand out a title that year) this only leaves the entire south with only 9 titles out of the remaining 36 title games! Wow, the south has had 2 dyanasties judson and katy and they are a collective 8-8 against the north in ttle games.SLC has Judson beat over the short term because the Rockets just don't go undefeated. They're going to lose some games. Over the long haul, you see their strength.

[bobcatDL07]

wut about midland lee's run and katy hasnt really skipped a beat within the past 10 years

[WOS87]

Thanks for the list. Permian, Plano, and Judson would be on the list for a few more years beyond what you listed.

I'm working on extending it out further but as you could imagine, each year added adds another level of complexity to the mathematics involved....

Also, I'm working on similar lists by both winning percentage and by fewest losses, which would give the teams that were around before a 16-win season was possible (which in 5A has only been since 1982 and prior to 1968 the maximum possible total wins in a season was only 14 in the largest classification. Austin Reagan was the first large classification team ever to win 15 games in a season in 1968 due to the doubling of the number of districts in the playoff bracket.) a fair chance to compare with the current powerhouses. Look at how many losses Permian had in their showing in the 20+ season records compared to SLC, Plano and CJ and you realize that they probably hold the record for best winning percentage over 20+ seasons and maybe in to the teens before another team would pass them...

Again, the mathematics involved to calculate these things is horrendous due to the huge number of possible time windows you have to factor in..... but hopefully I'll get at least an initial result soon....

[Dragon20]

I'm working on extending it out further but as you could imagine, each year added adds another level of complexity to the mathematics involved....

Also, I'm working on similar lists by both winning percentage and by fewest losses, which would give the teams that were around before a 16-win season was possible (which in 5A has only been since 1982) a fair chance to compare with the current powerhouses. Look at how many losses Permian had in their showing in the 20+ season records compared to SLC, Plano and CJ and you realize that they probably hold the record for best winning percentage over 20+ seasons and maybe in to the teens before another team would pass them...

Again, the mathematics involved to calculate these things is horrendous due to the huge number of possible time windows you have to factor in..... but hopefully I'll get at least an initial result soon....

I found winning percentages on a website once I think the Order was Permian, Dallas Carter, SLC, Plano. I wish I could remember the site.

[JoeC]

I think ttech10 framed it best when posing the question: How are we defining the word Dynasty?

To accurately assess and answer this question you must first establish a benchmark (criterion)...

Here are several definitions taken from various sources:

1) A succession of rulers from the same family or line. A family or group that maintains power over several generations;
2) A sequence of powerful leaders from the same family - Sovereignty; dominion;
3) A family or extended family which retains political power across generations; the continued lordship of rulers;
4) A sequence of powerful leaders in the same family; and
5) A prominent and powerful family or group whose members retain their power and influence through several generations

There are several keywords associated to the word Dynasty which includes succession, power over several generations - retains and maintains, a sequence...

When considering what a Dynasty is you have to use one word that ties it all together (other than Power), a standard if you will, a criterion for defining the word - a benchmark (a standard used for comparison). That word is "Longevity." "The maintenance and retention of power by a group from the same family over several generations"... Now, when applying this as the benchmark, whom would you now consider the "most prominent dynasty?" Also, when comparing dynasties (short and long term), you have to compare apples to apples (largest classification only); for example, you wouldn't compare dynasties between the Dallas Cowboys and Notre Dame, would you? To be fair, there is no comparison. With that said, if you want to answer the question: "What dynasty has had the best run?" - fair and square, and objectively, I am of the opinion that you'd probably have to go with Odessa Permian (Longevity) with Converse Judson (Power) a close second...

[WOS87]

I found winning percentages on a website once I think the Order was Permian, Dallas Carter, SLC, Plano. I wish I could remember the site.


I've got a posting of the top all-time winning percentages posted that includes only through the end of 2005 (to be updated soon)... which happens to be a ranking close to my heart for obvious reasons... but what I'm talking about is calculating the winning percentages for every team for every possible 20, 21, 22, etc. year time window and then determining which team had the best 20 year window ever (whether it be 1965-1984 or 1987-2006). That's where the total number of calculations begins building up.... and that's why the records I have posted above took so long to actually calculate....

All-Time Highest Winning Percentages among all active 11-man UIL teams (http://texashsfootball.com/board/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=19714&st=0#entry247384)

[DragonFan]

I think if you go by the definition of A succession of rulers from the same family or line then you have to say SLC. You have had the 5A Offensive player of the year be Chase Wassen, Chase Daniel (2 years) and McElroy last year. That is an impressive list.

[JoeC]

I think if you go by the definition of A succession of rulers from the same family or line then you have to say SLC. You have had the 5A Offensive player of the year be Chase Wassen, Chase Daniel (2 years) and McElroy last year. That is an impressive list.


Pretty good my man, pretty good. ;) I didn't see that one coming. I must learn to duck!!! :D

[oldtig]

Here's a homer stat. Katy is batting about 59.5% overall- (since 1939) earned our 400th win this year. However- the past 20 years they are 225-46. If my math is right that's 83%. Just wanted to toss that out there.

[WOS87]

Also, when comparing dynasties (short and long term), you have to compare apples to apples (largest classification only); for example, you wouldn't compare dynasties between the Dallas Cowboys and Notre Dame, would you? To be fair, there is no comparison. With that said, if you want to answer the question: "What dynasty has had the best run?" - fair and square, and objectively, I am of the opinion that you'd probably have to go with Odessa Permian (Longevity) with Converse Judson (Power) a close second...

I agree about comparing apples to apples but where do you draw the line between something actually being an apple and something being an orange... In actuality it's more of a continuum... like comparing a housecat to a lion... both Plano and SLC had periods of explosive growth with the enrollment of SLC essentially tripling in the 15 years from 1986 to 2001 and Plano having a similar increase from 1964 to 1979. Whereas a rapidly growing school has the advantage of always having an actual enrollment larger than their "official" one... they also have to deal with the majority of the kids coming up through the ranks coming in from the outside so it is much more difficult to start in the junior high ranks and follow a complete practially unchanged class of kids from 7th grade up through varsity like is the case with Permian, and they also had to deal with the disruption of changing classifications. One thing that is unique about West Orange-Stark is that they are one of the few programs that have consistently done well while their enrollment has shrunk... we were one of the smallest 5A schools in the state when we gave Yates a run for their money in 1985. They were one of the smallest 4A teams in the state in 2000 when they made it to the finals against Ennis, and now we're dealing with already being a solid Division II 3A team as we're only the 3rd largest in our 3A district... (I don't see them dropping to 2A any time soon though...)

[maxtor]

I found winning percentages on a website once I think the Order was Permian, Dallas Carter, SLC, Plano. I wish I could remember the site.

Well, one thing is for cetain. carter being included on that list nullifies the list. LOL Carter has done nothing but play inner city schools and lose to the burbs. They crank out some talent and every now and then they go a few rounds deep into the playoffs.

[maxtor]

SLC has Judson beat over the short term because the Rockets just don't go undefeated. They're going to lose some games. Over the long haul, you see their strength.

SLC does have Judson beat over the short term and the long term also.

[maxtor]

I think ttech10 framed it best when posing the question: How are we defining the word Dynasty?

To accurately assess and answer this question you must first establish a benchmark (criterion)...

Here are several definitions taken from various sources:

1) A succession of rulers from the same family or line. A family or group that maintains power over several generations;
2) A sequence of powerful leaders from the same family - Sovereignty; dominion;
3) A family or extended family which retains political power across generations; the continued lordship of rulers;
4) A sequence of powerful leaders in the same family; and
5) A prominent and powerful family or group whose members retain their power and influence through several generations

There are several keywords associated to the word Dynasty which includes succession, power over several generations - retains and maintains, a sequence...

When considering what a Dynasty is you have to use one word that ties it all together (other than Power), a standard if you will, a criterion for defining the word - a benchmark (a standard used for comparison). That word is "Longevity." "The maintenance and retention of power by a group from the same family over several generations"... Now, when applying this as the benchmark, whom would you now consider the "most prominent dynasty?" Also, when comparing dynasties (short and long term), you have to compare apples to apples (largest classification only); for example, you wouldn't compare dynasties between the Dallas Cowboys and Notre Dame, would you? To be fair, there is no comparison. With that said, if you want to answer the question: "What dynasty has had the best run?" - fair and square, and objectively, I am of the opinion that you'd probably have to go with Odessa Permian (Longevity) with Converse Judson (Power) a close second...


The definition above was in the context of rulers of nations spanning the melinia. Yes, over a period of 120 years you have a ruling dynasty.

In the context of high school football the time frame of a dynasty would be much more compact.

Judson plays in a tough district and incurs losses. In the playoffs they go D1 and never see those tough teams again. Judson plays Laredo DefactoFootball Academy and has a free ride to state. This is why they have reg season losses with a lot of title appearances.

[mojotrain]

ok out of the 4 teams listed...who did u think had the best team dynasty (take strength of schedule considerably because some skool have to try harder with better district)...this is only for 5A teams in the "other" pole answer because this is a 5A texas football forum

Like I said, here we go. Strength of schedule? What criteria do you use to determine strength of schedule? No district in the state has gleened more big class state championships than the Abilene, Midland, San Angelo and Odessa district. Thats a documented fact. Is that strength of schedule? The one your looking for? You talk dynasty and base your point on a game with Permian.

Permian opened it's doors in 1959 and from 1960 their first district championship through 1995. They won more than their share of games. Its all in print, Its all documented, no supposition at all.

I didn't create the Permian legend, books or movies. Others outside of Odessa have done that. I have added to post such as yours time and again because I'm a little bias.

If you want a un-bias answer to the question you ask, then ask this. What team in Texas holds the greatest dynasty excluding your own team?

There are maybe six or seven teams that could fit the question that you have ask. These same teams fit the question before you ask it and they will fit your question when this string meets its natural death.

[LUFPAN]

in other words..."how many of you think judson is the greatest state powerhouse of the past"

works better if you just get to the point. :eek:

That's exactly how I read it.

[mojotrain]

How are we defining the word "Dynasty" because I would consider Midland Lee to have once been a dynasty 3 straight State Championships from 98, 99, and 2000.

ttech, correct but don't limit Lee to 3 state titles they have been a heck of a football power much longer than that.

[dragonsdaddy]

That's exactly how I read it.
i wonder if i posed a question like- "which team has done the best after moving up a classification?" anyone would think i was being presumptuous?

[dragonsdaddy]

ttech, correct but don't limit Lee to 3 state titles they have been a heck of a football power much longer than that.
they had a great run in 83 i know. when did they do well otherwise? they had to finish second once or a dozen times to operm, i figure.

[JoeC]

The definition above was in the context of rulers of nations spanning the melinia. Yes, over a period of 120 years you have a ruling dynasty.

In the context of high school football the time frame of a dynasty would be much more compact.

Judson plays in a tough district and incurs losses. In the playoffs they go D1 and never see those tough teams again. Judson plays Laredo DefactoFootball Academy and has a free ride to state. This is why they have reg season losses with a lot of title appearances.

Not trying to stir up the pot (honestly), but some teams paths to glory does go down a road that is less bumpy (no fingers pointed, no teams named)... :cool: Some teams get there intact (pretty much injury free) while others enter the fray only a semblance of the team that started the journey... Truthfully, it does make a difference...;) :cool:

[LUFPAN]

i wonder if i posed a question like- "which team has done the best after moving up a classification?" anyone would think i was being presumptuous?

Yes....for obvious reasons.

[Firebird]

Like I said, here we go. Strength of schedule? What criteria do you use to determine strength of schedule? No district in the state has gleened more big class state championships than the Abilene, Midland, San Angelo and Odessa district. Thats a documented fact. Is that strength of schedule? The one your looking for? You talk dynasty and base your point on a game with Permian.

Permian opened it's doors in 1959 and from 1960 their first district championship through 1995. They won more than their share of games. Its all in print, Its all documented, no supposition at all.

I didn't create the Permian legend, books or movies. Others outside of Odessa have done that. I have added to post such as yours time and again because I'm a little bias.

If you want a un-bias answer to the question you ask, then ask this. What team in Texas holds the greatest dynasty excluding your own team?

There are maybe six or seven teams that could fit the question that you have ask. These same teams fit the question before you ask it and they will fit your question when this string meets its natural death.


I completely agree with you, mojotrain.

The problem is, there is no "right" answer to this question:
SLC has had a meteoric rise to the top of the 5a football heap. There is no question that in the 2000's they have been as dominant as any one team ever has been in HS football. Plus, the program shows no signs of slowing down, and is in the process of creating its own mystique. You have to talk about the Dragons.

Judson has won more state titles at the 5a level than anyone else. Year after year they emerge as a contender from one of the state's hardest fought districts. They never put a team out that just blows you away with talent, almost never give you a spectacular undefeated season BUT: when the dust settles they are nearly always one of the last, if not THE last team standing. You have to talk about the Rockets.

Plano won a string of state titles and never lost to MOJO back when MOJO was at its peak. They get forgotten in the conversation, and their best years are behind them, but in their prime they were one of the state's best teams. You have to talk about the Wildcats.

Permian personifies Texas HS football to millions across the nation. They won and contendend for state championships almost immediately after the doors opened in 1965, and were a dominant power in the state's largest classification until the mid 1990's. Sorry SLC, but when MOJO was at its peak, they were the most hated team in the state of Texas. Permian IS Friday Night Lights. You have to talk about the Panthers.

Katy needs to be listed in this poll too. Katy fits the same mold as Judson. They never wow you with talent. But year after year, they make deep playoff runs, and have come away with 4 state titles. Plus, they are the only team to have beaten the mighty SLC machine in a state 5a title game. You have to talk about the Tigers.

A few more teams deserve to be mentioned... Lewisville, Midland Lee, Temple, Lufkin, GP North Shore, Westlake...I may be missing a few. But I believe that SLC, Plano, Permian, Judson, and Katy could all be proclaimed "top dynasty" with good reason. Between the 5, no amount of debate will settle the question.

[CCBoy]

Well, one thing is for cetain. carter being included on that list nullifies the list. LOL Carter has done nothing but play inner city schools and lose to the burbs. They crank out some talent and every now and then they go a few rounds deep into the playoffs.
I wouldn't count Carter a dynasty anyway. I can say that they were one of the top football programs once upon a time, and even now they aren't slouches. I've seen this, "Carter only plays inner city schools" quote twice today. Where are you getting this info from? Is that in the paper today? Check the schedules. District? Yeah, inner city schools, but their non-district schedule...........Some ranked teams would come away 1-4, or even 0-5.

[StormingCowboy]

De La Salle!!

[grayowl60]

I wouldn't count Carter a dynasty anyway. I can say that they were one of the top football programs once upon a time, and even now they aren't slouches. I've seen this, "Carter only plays inner city schools" quote twice today. Where are you getting this info from? Is that in the paper today? Check the schedules. District? Yeah, inner city schools, but their non-district schedule...........Some ranked teams would come away 1-4, or even 0-5.
I dont think Kimball or Skyline are pushovers. In the last few years Carter has played Lamar, JT, Longview, Garland (twice in 05) Mesquite, Plano. Not exactly dodging competition:eek: Go Cowboys

[LUFPAN]

De La Salle!!

That's who's getting my vote :D

[StormingCowboy]

That's who's getting my vote :D

Thats what you call a dynasty!!

[CCBoy]

I dont think Kimball or Skyline are pushovers. In the last few years Carter has played Lamar, JT, Longview, Garland (twice in 05) Mesquite, Plano. Not exactly dodging competition:eek: Go Cowboys
Thanks Grayowl!!!

[ttech10]

ttech, correct but don't limit Lee to 3 state titles they have been a heck of a football power much longer than that.


I realize they are I was just mentioning the state championships they won that I could remember off the top of my head, and that just happened to be during the "Cedric Benson" era.

I also didnt feel like looking up other years they had won

[StormingCowboy]

Thanks Grayowl!!!

And for the record Wilson didn't want to be in their current district but that was beyond his control. He did what he could by scheduling tough non-district opponents to test his Wing-T against.

[grayowl60]

And for the record Wilson didn't want to be in their current district but that was beyond his control. He did what he could by scheduling tough non-district opponents to test his Wing-T against.
Garland had one less non district game because of one school added to the district, so I guess Carter was dropped. THATS FINE WITH ME:eek: Although I do miss those wing-T vs wing-T, smash mouth, old school (boring:rolleyes: ) games we had, classics!

[dragonsdaddy]

Garland had one less non district game because of one school added to the district, so I guess Carter was dropped. THATS FINE WITH ME:eek: Although I do miss those wing-T vs wing-T, smash mouth, old school (boring:rolleyes: ) games we had, classics!
they may or not be boring, but they are definitely prehistoric. like two old dinosaurs shoving each other for dominance. the results are often loud and bloody.

[mojotrain]

Not trying to stir up the pot (honestly), but some teams paths to glory does go down a road that is less bumpy (no fingers pointed, no teams named)... :cool: Some teams get there intact (pretty much injury free) while others enter the fray only a semblance of the team that started the journey... Truthfully, it does make a difference...;) :cool:

That too would would be in the eye or thoughts of the beholder and unproveable based on someones thoughts in the the stength of schedules.

[mojotrain]

let me lay some stats down...
that i know of in 5A football

Permian has 4 championships out of 6 trips
Judson has 6 championships out of 10 trips
Plano has 3 champinships out of 4 trips
SLC has 3 championships out of 4 trips


Against these 4 teams in the state finals...
1- Permian is 0 and 1 with a 31- 28 loss to Judson
2-Judson is 2 and 0 with a 36-13 win over Plano and a 31- 28 win over Permian
3-Plano is 0 and 1 with a 36-13 loss th Judson
4- SLC has not played any of these teams in the state finals (and there is a chace they will this yr)

210 Your numbers are not totally correct. In 1965 there were no 5-A schools in the state. 4-A was as big as it got. It was the same in 1972, 4-A was as big as it got. When the UIL went to a 5-A classification all or most 4-A schools became 5-A over night. Not because of enrollment jumps They eliminated class B schools and made them class A therefore all schools moved up a notch. Permian had the same amount of students in the sixties when they were 4-A as they did in the ninties. So in 1965 Permian won the big school championships as well as in 1972. It was not a enrollement increase we have always been big school. Then in your totals for 6 trips to state. Permian has been to the big school dance 11 times over from 1965 until 1995. Thats 30 years.

Thats a high school football dynasty at least to a few people. So here is my figures. Done within a district that totals 18 Texas State Football championships.

Odessa Permian has
25- District Championships( One was co-championship)

22-Bi-distict Championships

No offering in Area/regional/quarter finals count. To complicated for me.
The Area game was another UIL deal and it occured in the middle of all these useless facts.

15- State semifinalist.

11- State finals

6- State championships of which news orginazations called two of them National Championships.

The State crown from our district brethren are as follows
Abilene High 6 times
Midland Lee 3 times
San Angelo Central 2 times
Odessa High 1 time

Pretty impressive, hu!

[bullrock]

Too bad Lufkin hasn't been named in any of these conversations. Any reason?
Lufpan, what's your beef with Judson. I can't remember ever playing ya'll? Is it the problem farmerfan has? I haven't figured that one out either. If you think the threads are pro-Judson then stay out of them rather than trash them.:rolleyes:

[dragonsdaddy]

How are we defining the word "Dynasty" because I would consider Midland Lee to have once been a dynasty 3 straight State Championships from 98, 99, and 2000.
i don't know when mlee opened, but their first po appearence was in 74. by their website, they have made the finals 4 times since 74(3 in a row).that in itself sounds less than dynastic, imo. they have had 8 semi appearances. considering they missed several in the 1 po team era, due to mojo, that's not so bad. they did get a panhandle and an ep school every year, so making the semi's may be less of an accomplishment. who knows. there's no doubt that the benson era was pretty salty, but otherwise, they have been pretty average.

[bullrock]

I think if you'll look a little closer you'll notice the little SWC was pretty dominant in a lot of those years. So making it out of the region was a pretty good feat. And going to the big game 4 times? And the semis 8 times? You can tell we are all spoiled when we don't consider that successful. Look at all of the programs that never make the 3rd round. In my opinon, thier accoplishments are some that need to be mentioned.

[toddg]

I completely agree with you, mojotrain.

The problem is, there is no "right" answer to this question:
SLC has had a meteoric rise to the top of the 5a football heap. There is no question that in the 2000's they have been as dominant as any one team ever has been in HS football. Plus, the program shows no signs of slowing down, and is in the process of creating its own mystique. You have to talk about the Dragons.

Judson has won more state titles at the 5a level than anyone else. Year after year they emerge as a contender from one of the state's hardest fought districts. They never put a team out that just blows you away with talent, almost never give you a spectacular undefeated season BUT: when the dust settles they are nearly always one of the last, if not THE last team standing. You have to talk about the Rockets.

Plano won a string of state titles and never lost to MOJO back when MOJO was at its peak. They get forgotten in the conversation, and their best years are behind them, but in their prime they were one of the state's best teams. You have to talk about the Wildcats.

Permian personifies Texas HS football to millions across the nation. They won and contendend for state championships almost immediately after the doors opened in 1965, and were a dominant power in the state's largest classification until the mid 1990's. Sorry SLC, but when MOJO was at its peak, they were the most hated team in the state of Texas. Permian IS Friday Night Lights. You have to talk about the Panthers.

Katy needs to be listed in this poll too. Katy fits the same mold as Judson. They never wow you with talent. But year after year, they make deep playoff runs, and have come away with 4 state titles. Plus, they are the only team to have beaten the mighty SLC machine in a state 5a title game. You have to talk about the Tigers.

A few more teams deserve to be mentioned... Lewisville, Midland Lee, Temple, Lufkin, GP North Shore, Westlake...I may be missing a few. But I believe that SLC, Plano, Permian, Judson, and Katy could all be proclaimed "top dynasty" with good reason. Between the 5, no amount of debate will settle the question.


my father went to permian in 1960 and graduated there in 1962 so the doors actually opened then...never the less as a whole i would say plano is the most sucessful hs school program in texas hs football history, only if you meant overall. they are the winningest overall and have more hardware in the case than anybody.

[dragonsdaddy]

I think if you'll look a little closer you'll notice the little SWC was pretty dominant in a lot of those years. So making it out of the region was a pretty good feat. And going to the big game 4 times? And the semis 8 times? You can tell we are all spoiled when we don't consider that successful. Look at all of the programs that never make the 3rd round. In my opinon, thier accoplishments are some that need to be mentioned.
we are discussing the top dynasties. 1 final visit besides the benson years is not terribly special. more impressive was getting into the po's at all before the 2 team era.

[jrock210]

210 Your numbers are not totally correct. In 1965 there were no 5-A schools in the state. 4-A was as big as it got. It was the same in 1972, 4-A was as big as it got. When the UIL went to a 5-A classification all or most 4-A schools became 5-A over night. Not because of enrollment jumps They eliminated class B schools and made them class A therefore all schools moved up a notch. Permian had the same amount of students in the sixties when they were 4-A as they did in the ninties. So in 1965 Permian won the big school championships as well as in 1972. It was not a enrollement increase we have always been big school. Then in your totals for 6 trips to state. Permian has been to the big school dance 11 times over from 1965 until 1995. Thats 30 years.

Thats a high school football dynasty at least to a few people. So here is my figures. Done within a district that totals 18 Texas State Football championships.

Odessa Permian has
25- District Championships( One was co-championship)

22-Bi-distict Championships

No offering in Area/regional/quarter finals count. To complicated for me.
The Area game was another UIL deal and it occured in the middle of all these useless facts.

15- State semifinalist.

11- State finals

6- State championships of which news orginazations called two of them National Championships.

The State crown from our district brethren are as follows
Abilene High 6 times
Midland Lee 3 times
San Angelo Central 2 times
Odessa High 1 time

Pretty impressive, hu!
since 1980 the state championship apperances by our district

Judson Rockets 10 times
Roosevelt 1 time
SV 2 times
Macarthur 1 time
and thats it not that many compared to urs but against the teams u luisted our district is...
2-1 in state final games

[Firebird]

since 1980 the state championship apperances by our district

Judson Rockets 10 times
Roosevelt 1 time
SV 2 times
Macarthur 1 time
and thats it not that many compared to urs but against the teams u luisted our district is...
2-1 in state final games


That's great J-Rock, but if you are trying to argue that Odessa Permian doesn't qualify as a dynasty, you are skating on thin, thin ice. There isn't a serious observer of hs football in the state that will say something like that.

Over a span of 30 years: 6 championships, 11 appearances. That's a hell of a run. Plus, you have to remember that Permian won championships when only one champ was crowned in each division, and was winning district back when only one team got to advance.

Judson wouldn't have a few appearences in the state game (and certainly in the semi's) if they had to be district champs to advance.

Like I posted before, there isn't a "correct" answer. I don't think that anyone can seriously debate that SLC, Judson, Katy, Plano, and Permian belong in any discussion of top dynasties.

[mojotrain]

my father went to permian in 1960 and graduated there in 1962 so the doors actually opened then...never the less as a whole i would say plano is the most sucessful hs school program in texas hs football history, only if you meant overall. they are the winningest overall and have more hardware in the case than anybody. I would not argue this point at all.

[toddg]

of course in any "overall" arguement...Brownwood would have a say..

[dragonsdaddy]

of course in any "overall" arguement...Brownwood would have a say..
and celina, and sealy, and lamarque(which was 5a for a while), and stephenville, garland, wfalls, waco,and heck, even hp. and wos goes without saying.

[lonny23]

SLC does have Judson beat over the short term and the long term also.
Look at it again. You'll see a run of quite a few years where Judson has SLC beat. If you were to extend it out to more years, you'd see some other years where Judson has them beat, too. Both teams are in the Top 10 for All-time Winning %.

[lonny23]

The definition above was in the context of rulers of nations spanning the melinia. Yes, over a period of 120 years you have a ruling dynasty.

In the context of high school football the time frame of a dynasty would be much more compact.

Judson plays in a tough district and incurs losses. In the playoffs they go D1 and never see those tough teams again. Judson plays Laredo DefactoFootball Academy and has a free ride to state. This is why they have reg season losses with a lot of title appearances.
You're wrong. Judson plays tough playoff teams in non-district and district and that prepares them to be better than their opponents in the playoffs. Judson plays teams with speed and good skill players to tune up for the playoffs. Once they get to Week 11, they've already had to raise their game to higher levels than their opponents have had to do.

[dragonsdaddy]

Look at it again. You'll see a run of quite a few years where Judson has SLC beat. If you were to extend it out to more years, you'd see some other years where Judson has them beat, too. Both teams are in the Top 10 for All-time Winning %.
that may be his point too. long and short, not middle. i'm waiting for the inevitable "only 5a counts references" .

[lonny23]

i wonder if i posed a question like- "which team has done the best after moving up a classification?" anyone would think i was being presumptuous?
We'd just vote for Plano since they've won titles in 4 classes.:p You wouldn't mind, but the rest of the Dragon faithful would be mad!:D

[mojotrain]

since 1980 the state championship apperances by our district

Judson Rockets 10 times
Roosevelt 1 time
SV 2 times
Macarthur 1 time
and thats it not that many compared to urs but against the teams u luisted our district is...
2-1 in state final games

OK, now it's since 1980. Is their any thing magic about 1980?

Now we will see a post that covers from 1940 to 1950 or from 1998 through 2001 or from 1492 through 2006. Texas high school covers at least from 1892 with the Galveston Ball team through the state champions ET and SLC of 2005. I suppose a dynasty should be considered throughout that period or at least major portions of it. Someone has already explained what dynasty means. It didn't start in 1980.

If you don't consider classification then think of Fort Hancock in 6-man.

See their is no answer. Start this string again and put in the limits you want to make your team appear to be the one.

Or start the post again with no limits and ask posters to vote for any team except their own.

Their will never be a conclusion except in each his own mind. If you wanting a overwhelming majority of people in the state to agree that your Judson is the tops your just wizzing in the wind.

[lonny23]

they had a great run in 83 i know. when did they do well otherwise? they had to finish second once or a dozen times to operm, i figure.
83 is the only other title game they've had.

[lonny23]

Not trying to stir up the pot (honestly), but some teams paths to glory does go down a road that is less bumpy (no fingers pointed, no teams named)... :cool: Some teams get there intact (pretty much injury free) while others enter the fray only a semblance of the team that started the journey... Truthfully, it does make a difference...;) :cool:
That is pure crap. Forgive me for saying that about your post because many say it, but it's crap. Every team that wins in the playoffs has to go through tough teams. I get tired of everybody always wanting to cheapen the wins of others because they think that team got it easy. The truth is those other teams are GREAT and that's why they win. It has nothing to do with where they play or who they play. At the end of the day, we've had 32, 64, 96, and 128 team playoffs. Every team has a chance to win games and you win because you're better than the next team. If you can't beat a team in your own Region, there's a good chance that you're going to find somebody in every Region who would beat you. Once you get to the Semifinals, you'll see that every team still standing is very good and can beat you if you don't play well. Bad teams don't get to the Semifinals.

[toddg]

OK, now it's since 1980. Is their any thing magic about 1980?

Now we will see a post that covers from 1940 to 1950 or from 1998 through 2001 or from 1492 through 2006. Texas high school covers at least from 1892 with the Galveston Ball team through the state champions ET and SLC of 2005. I suppose a dynasty should be considered throughout that period or at least major portions of it. Someone has already explained what dynasty means. It didn't start in 1980.

If you don't consider classification then think of Fort Hancock in 6-man.

See their is no answer. Start this string again and put in the limits you want to make your team appear to be the one.

Or start the post again with no limits and ask posters to vote for any team except their own.

Their will never be a conclusion except in each his own mind. If you wanting a overwhelming majority of people in the state to agree that your Judson is the tops your just wizzing in the wind.

1920 is pretty much the starting point..anything before that is not official.

[lonny23]

I wouldn't count Carter a dynasty anyway. I can say that they were one of the top football programs once upon a time, and even now they aren't slouches. I've seen this, "Carter only plays inner city schools" quote twice today. Where are you getting this info from? Is that in the paper today? Check the schedules. District? Yeah, inner city schools, but their non-district schedule...........Some ranked teams would come away 1-4, or even 0-5.
Yes, Carter plays outside of Dallas in non-district, but I still think that district hurts them for the playoffs and non-district.

[lonny23]

Thats what you call a dynasty!!
De La Salle had it easy. They only played for Section Titles and not State Titles. The Texas 2-title system is better than Section Titles.

[lonny23]

i don't know when mlee opened, but their first po appearence was in 74. by their website, they have made the finals 4 times since 74(3 in a row).that in itself sounds less than dynastic, imo. they have had 8 semi appearances. considering they missed several in the 1 po team era, due to mojo, that's not so bad. they did get a panhandle and an ep school every year, so making the semi's may be less of an accomplishment. who knows. there's no doubt that the benson era was pretty salty, but otherwise, they have been pretty average.
Lee has consistently been pretty good during the year. They've won playoff games, but they haven't been a December team except for the Benson era.

[dragonsdaddy]

We'd just vote for Plano since they've won titles in 4 classes.:p You wouldn't mind, but the rest of the Dragon faithful would be mad!:D
the 4 classifications is really 3 as they won in the largest(4), 2nd largest(1), and 3rd largest(2). still and all, not too shabby.

[KTBandKid]

what about katy? i mean i know that they haven't had the greatest run, but they have been around a lot longer then most of these schools.

[dragonsdaddy]

what about katy? i mean i know that they haven't had the greatest run, but they have been around a lot longer then most of these schools.
since i assume this to be a 5a site and thus 5a dynasties only need apply, i've got kt way ahead of slc, and behind coju, mojo, and plano. slc's taking some long strides, but not in the race yet, imo.

[KTBandKid]

since i assume this to be a 5a site and thus 5a dynasties only need apply, i've got kt way ahead of slc, and behind coju, mojo, and plano. slc's taking some long strides, but not in the race yet, imo.

i am a bit confused...what do you mean by that? i don't know if i am reading it wrong or what so i just thought i would ask.

[dragonsdaddy]

i am a bit confused...what do you mean by that? i don't know if i am reading it wrong or what so i just thought i would ask.
only 5a records go into 5a dynasties, imo. thus slc only has 4+ years of 5a play counting towards any dynastic tendencies. not enough, as i see it, to be considered a dynasty.

[KTBandKid]

okay see i thought you were talking about katy.

[dragonsdaddy]

okay see i thought you were talking about katy.
i was, as i referred to them as being ahead of slc in my earlier post.

[JoeC]

That too would would be in the eye or thoughts of the beholder and unproveable based on someones thoughts in the the stength of schedules.

My man, that's exactly what a debate is, most likely not provable. If it were cut and dry, this thread would have been a whole lot shorter... There is a very old saying that goes like this: "You know what you know and what you don't know, you know." Whether provable are not, is not the question, it's enough that it is a real possibility that maybe some of these teams keep getting to the big dance because they may be in a less physical district and region - beginning to end. Think about it, if LP was in another region whereby they would have had the luxury of avoiding bumping heads with SLC in the Semis - they would "very possibly" have appeared in three state championships in recent history and likely headed for a fourth. :eek: Then, just maybe LP would legitimately and deservingly be added to this “debate” about dynasties (3-State Finals appearances and a State Championship). Question: “How many of these dynasty prospects and regions would like to add LP or vice versa?” ;) :cool:

[KTBandKid]

i was, as i referred to them as being ahead of slc in my earlier post.

oh i know but i thought you were saying that because katy wasn't 5a when they started way back when that they weren't considered. it was just a misunderstanding. it has been a long day so you will have to excuse me.

[lonny23]

since 1980 the state championship apperances by our district

Judson Rockets 10 times
Roosevelt 1 time
SV 2 times
Macarthur 1 time
and thats it not that many compared to urs but against the teams u luisted our district is...
2-1 in state final games
Much of the Little SWC success was before 5A. 26-5A is 3-1 vs. 3-5A in title games.

Since 1980 in title games (7-8):

C Judson 6-4
SA Roosevelt 1-0
SA MacArthur 0-1
SV 0-3

Before 1980 (2-2):

SA Lee 1-2
SA Churchill 1-0

Since 1980 (7-5):

O Permian 4-2
M Lee 3-1 (That is the only 4 times they ever made it to the Semis, too. I think they've been to the Quarterfinals 8 times)
Midland 0-1
A Cooper 0-1

Before 1980 present and former teams (18-11 if you count all of the years when they were in other districts, but 8-6 since 1951 when the so-called Little SWC was formed and 8-4 from the Little SWC teams while in the District):

Abilene 6-2
Amarillo 4-1
Lubbock 3-1
O Permian 2-3
San Angelo/SA Central 2-0
Odessa 1-1 (BTW, Jim Carson was 4-11 in district his 3 years out there. That doesn't bode well for Seguin in a few weeks. Most of his wins at Odessa came against chumps.)
Big Spring 0-1 (In 3A)
Borger 0-1
A Cooper 0-1

If you get down to the bottom line and cut out all the title games when a team was in a different district, you'll see:

26-5A is 9-8 in title games.
3-5A is 15-9 in title games.


Looky here!:D I see in 1959 that Stamford didn't win a title 19-14 over Brady. They were stripped of the title and lost 1-0. Funny, nobody ever talks about Brady around here.

[JoeC]

My man, that's exactly what a debate is, most likely not provable. If it were cut and dry, this thread would have been a whole lot shorter... There is a very old saying that goes like this: "You know what you know and what you don't know, you know." Whether provable are not, is not the question, it's enough that it is a real possibility that maybe some of these teams keep getting to the big dance because they may be in a less physical district and region - beginning to end. Think about it, if LP was in another region whereby they would have had the luxury of avoiding bumping heads with SLC in the Semis - they would "very possibly" have appeared in three state championships in recent history and likely headed for a fourth. :eek: Then, just maybe LP would legitimately and deservingly be added to this “debate” about dynasties (3-State Finals appearances and a State Championship). Question: “How many of these dynasty prospects and regions would like to add LP or vice versa?” ;) :cool:


What!!! I thought volunteers would be lining up... I am pretty sure if they were not in our region, it would have been LV with two recent trips to the Semis and facing SLC.... :mad: Come on, calling on volunteers...:D

[lonny23]

OK, now it's since 1980. Is their any thing magic about 1980?

Now we will see a post that covers from 1940 to 1950 or from 1998 through 2001 or from 1492 through 2006. Texas high school covers at least from 1892 with the Galveston Ball team through the state champions ET and SLC of 2005. I suppose a dynasty should be considered throughout that period or at least major portions of it. Someone has already explained what dynasty means. It didn't start in 1980.

If you don't consider classification then think of Fort Hancock in 6-man.

See their is no answer. Start this string again and put in the limits you want to make your team appear to be the one.

Or start the post again with no limits and ask posters to vote for any team except their own.

Their will never be a conclusion except in each his own mind. If you wanting a overwhelming majority of people in the state to agree that your Judson is the tops your just wizzing in the wind.Yeah, that's when all the football fans said Schlitz was better than Miller!:p

People say 1980 because that's when 5A started. Some people use 1980 because it works for their argument. I always preface my comments as "Best in 5A" because best ever MUST include teams like Wichita Falls, Waco, and Abilene for big schools along with the others who've been mentioned.

It's hard to argue best ever. Fort Hancock, Sealy, and Celina all won 4 in a row. Just because they're smaller doesn't mean they weren't as good.

For me, Permian is better All-time than Judson, but only by a small margin. We're talking one more Judson title and they may be ahead of MOJO. It's tight with Plano. I have to discount SLC a little because of 3A, but they're still in the running.

[lonny23]

1920 is pretty much the starting point..anything before that is not official.
The UIL started giving titles in 1920, but I know of title teams a little further back than that.

[mojotrain]

My man, that's exactly what a debate is, most likely not provable. If it were cut and dry, this thread would have been a whole lot shorter... There is a very old saying that goes like this: "You know what you know and what you don't know, you know." Whether provable are not, is not the question, it's enough that it is a real possibility that maybe some of these teams keep getting to the big dance because they may be in a less physical district and region - beginning to end. Think about it, if LP was in another region whereby they would have had the luxury of avoiding bumping heads with SLC in the Semis - they would "very possibly" have appeared in three state championships in recent history and likely headed for a fourth. :eek: Then, just maybe LP would legitimately and deservingly be added to this “debate” about dynasties (3-State Finals appearances and a State Championship). Question: “How many of these dynasty prospects and regions would like to add LP or vice versa?” ;) :cool:

Well if thats your thought then my first post on this string was this is just a pissin contest which will have no answer. When UIL handed six State championship Trophys to Permian, they failed to mention to us we had backed into it and should send a get well card to LP or whoever could't make the dance. Your District reps. were your district reps. the best you had. I beat the 3-5A drums because of the total number of state championships they hold. Permian missed state playoffs 4 time with a 9-1 seaso before UIL deluited the playoffs. That also points to a strong district. So maybe, if, maybe, if, maybe, if a sow had only 1 teat then bacon would be 75.00 a pound.

Again for your ears only. Their is no answer for this but this is no debate or discussion, A fact for what ever reason says my team has more playoff trophys than yours. And heres my little cutie thing:p :p

[lonny23]

the 4 classifications is really 3 as they won in the largest(4), 2nd largest(1), and 3rd largest(2). still and all, not too shabby.
I know that and you know that, but not everybody knows that and I want a better sounding argument before I get crucified by SLC fans!:D Eventually, I'd come clean, but would want to have some fun first.

[lonny23]

My man, that's exactly what a debate is, most likely not provable. If it were cut and dry, this thread would have been a whole lot shorter... There is a very old saying that goes like this: "You know what you know and what you don't know, you know." Whether provable are not, is not the question, it's enough that it is a real possibility that maybe some of these teams keep getting to the big dance because they may be in a less physical district and region - beginning to end. Think about it, if LP was in another region whereby they would have had the luxury of avoiding bumping heads with SLC in the Semis - they would "very possibly" have appeared in three state championships in recent history and likely headed for a fourth. :eek: Then, just maybe LP would legitimately and deservingly be added to this “debate” about dynasties (3-State Finals appearances and a State Championship). Question: “How many of these dynasty prospects and regions would like to add LP or vice versa?” ;) :cool:
I REALLY think most of the top teams are fine with not having to compete with other top teams in their region for a title. I'm not on-board with all of the LP would be better if they played someplace else talk. The bottom line is LP gets beat and never plays the other guys and we don't know what would happen. I'll be back with a new signature and avatar.

[Plano Wildcat Fan]

This question is objectively easy.

Just look at the facts and figures.

If you objectively at Plano over a 30 year period from 1965 to 1995 they won more games, more state championships and won more playoff games, then any program 5a to 1a in the state.

Currently stand as the all time playoff leader, which I admit will probably be erased in the next couple of years due to the watered down playoff format of 4 times currently however they have either the first or second all time wins in the state.

Even more impressive is to look at the last 10 years of not playing to the standard and they still have quite an impressive resume. How many teams you know can go 10 years of average play and still lead in almost any team category when it comes to wins, Playoff appearances etc.

Mojo was a close 2nd however, Plano beat them in 4 Semi final appearances. I believe the only team to have a undefeated record against MOJO in the playoffs with 2 or more games.

[lonny23]

Well if thats your thought then my first post on this string was this is just a pissin contest which will have no answer. When UIL handed six State championship Trophys to Permian, they failed to mention to us we had backed into it and should send a get well card to LP or whoever could't make the dance. Your District reps. were your district reps. the best you had. I beat the 3-5A drums because of the total number of state championships they hold. Permian missed state playoffs 4 time with a 9-1 seaso before UIL deluited the playoffs. That also points to a strong district. So maybe, if, maybe, if, maybe, if a sow had only 1 teat then bacon would be 75.00 a pound.

Again for your ears only. Their is no answer for this but this is no debate or discussion, A fact for what ever reason says my team has more playoff trophys than yours. And heres my little cutie thing:p :p
I'm with you on that one. Invariably, most of the people who root for the teams that win the most show respect across the board to top teams and the fans who want to have a team like the top teams are always trying to say why X number of titles doesn't mean as much or how so and so would do a lot better someplace else. It's a loser's mentality. Just get on the field and beat everybody in front of you and you'll have nothing to worry about.

We know Judson's history, but I'm going to be honest with you. I've walked away from numerous Rocket games during the year and during the playoffs thinking how good the other team was. I expect Judson to win big games, but I'm going to tell you that they've had to scratch and claw at some point for every title they've won. When you get to Weeks 14-16 you realize those teams on the other side of the state that you don't see all year know how to play football. I seriously doubt we'll ever have a crap team in the Semifinals from any region.

[JoeC]

Well if thats your thought then my first post on this string was this is just a pissin contest which will have no answer. When UIL handed six State championship Trophys to Permian, they failed to mention to us we had backed into it and should send a get well card to LP or whoever could't make the dance. Your District reps. were your district reps. the best you had. I beat the 3-5A drums because of the total number of state championships they hold. Permian missed state playoffs 4 time with a 9-1 seaso before UIL deluited the playoffs. That also points to a strong district. So maybe, if, maybe, if, maybe, if a sow had only 1 teat then bacon would be 75.00 a pound.

Again for your ears only. Their is no answer for this but this is no debate or discussion, A fact for what ever reason says my team has more playoff trophys than yours. And heres my little cutie thing:p :p

Man, man, man... “Slam your brakes and put this thing in reverse and see which team I selected as the Dynasty. I'll give you a clue: ODESSA PERMIAN!!” I was not talking about you guys in a negative way, just speaking in general terms. Did I step on some toes? There is an old saying: “If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, you’ll know which one you hit…” Tell me where I did it!! I never mentioned any specific team. Hell you guys took what we felt was our trophy in 1975 (10-9 on a 62 yard FG). I've never mentioned you guys as a slouch... wouldn't dare... I was just responding to your comments regarding my thread. Beyond that, I'm just trying to get LP out of this region, then, just maybe -we'd have a chance.... Be cool my man, be cool...:cool:

[JoeC]

Dear mojotrain,

See page 3 post #53.....:cool:

[JoeC]

Man, man, man... “Slam your brakes and put this thing in reverse and see which team I selected as the Dynasty. I'll give you a clue: ODESSA PERMIAN!!” I was not talking about you guys in a negative way, just speaking in general terms. Did I step on some toes? There is an old saying: “If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, you’ll know which one you hit…” Tell me where I did it!! I never mentioned any specific team. Hell you guys took what we felt was our trophy in 1975 (10-9 on a 62 yard FG). I've never mentioned you guys as a slouch... wouldn't dare... I was just responding to your comments regarding my thread. Beyond that, I'm just trying to get LP out of this region, then, just maybe -we'd have a chance.... Be cool my man, be cool...:cool:

Just kidding... I wouldn't have it any other way...

[mojotrain]

Man, man, man... “Slam your brakes and put this thing in reverse and see which team I selected as the Dynasty. I'll give you a clue: ODESSA PERMIAN!!” I was not talking about you guys in a negative way, just speaking in general terms. Did I step on some toes? There is an old saying: “If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, you’ll know which one you hit…” Tell me where I did it!! I never mentioned any specific team. Hell you guys took what we felt was our trophy in 1975 (10-9 on a 62 yard FG). I've never mentioned you guys as a slouch... wouldn't dare... I was just responding to your comments regarding my thread. Beyond that, I'm just trying to get LP out of this region, then, just maybe -we'd have a chance.... Be cool my man, be cool...:cool:

Ok, joeC except my apology. When it comes to defending Permian sometimes I just shoot up among em. When I first saw this post My first comment or two concerned the lack of limits in the question and therefore a no end subject. I fell into a couple of these last summer and now I've done it again. On the 10-9 game colder that heck and Russell Wheatley kicked a fg for 62 yds. Good luck on moving.

[drgnbkr]

that may be his point too. long and short, not middle. i'm waiting for the inevitable "only 5a counts references" .

If that were a prerequisite...70-1 in 5-A speaks volumes....

[bullrock]

Personally, I think every team that plays football is a winner. Most of them are the best in their neighborhoods so that makes them the best in the eyes of their fans. We can argue and debate for eternity, the fact is, they all offer the same things to the people who follow them. They're all heroes in my eyes. And when it comes right down to it, everybody knows the truth about who is really the best and that point is never in question. Now, getting them to admit it might be another story.

[Katyexrb29]

All-Time Best 5A State Playoff Records

1. Converse Judson (77-16, 83%)
2. Katy (51-14, 80%)
3. Odessa Permian (50-10-5, 77%)
4. Plano (44-15, 76%)
5. Midland Lee (44-16, 75%)

Should help a little

[jrp83]

The definition above was in the context of rulers of nations spanning the melinia. Yes, over a period of 120 years you have a ruling dynasty.

In the context of high school football the time frame of a dynasty would be much more compact.

Judson plays in a tough district and incurs losses. In the playoffs they go D1 and never see those tough teams again. Judson plays Laredo DefactoFootball Academy and has a free ride to state. This is why they have reg season losses with a lot of title appearances.
Judson has to get past the local SA area teams, that are quite good, before getting to play 1 valley team. Judson played a good Seguin team in the 1st round last year, then a real good O'Connor team, then they played the lone valley team before playing #2 state ranked Westfield. Of course Euless Trinity in the Div. 1 Final. That's 4 tough teams out of 5. Most of the rest of the state gets their soft game in R1 or R2. Judson had theirs in R3. Look at all the teams that made the finals in both divisions. They all had at least 1 soft opponent in the road to the big dance. Just in a different week depending what region you look at. Go Rockets!

[farmerfan]

Judson has to get past the local SA area teams, that are quite good, before getting to play 1 valley team. Judson played a good Seguin team in the 1st round last year, then a real good O'Connor team, then they played the lone valley team before playing #2 state ranked Westfield. Of course Euless Trinity in the Div. 1 Final. That's 4 tough teams out of 5. Most of the rest of the state gets their soft game in R1 or R2. Judson had theirs in R3. Look at all the teams that made the finals in both divisions. They all had at least 1 soft opponent in the road to the big dance. Just in a different week depending what region you look at. Go Rockets!


The last two years that can not be said. Last year the combined losses of the teams Carroll played in the playoffs was 3. That included opening up the playoffs against a 9-1 team followed by playing a 9-2 team. Afterwards they played 4 straight undefeated teams. :eek:

[jrp83]

The last two years that can not be said. Last year the combined losses of the teams Carroll played in the playoffs was 3. That included opening up the playoffs against a 9-1 team followed by playing a 9-2 team. Afterwards they played 4 straight undefeated teams. :eek:
The valley team Judson has played many times has only had 1 or 2 losses. Win/Loss record does not mean a whole lot if you play in a weak district and play weak teams for non-district. There have been plenty of undefeated teams go down in the 1st or 2nd round of the playoffs for the simple reason that they were the best of the weak or undermanned squads. Go Rockets!

[jrp83]

If LONGEVITY is the sole criteria, then a number of teams should be mentioned. Permian, Plano, and Judson, in that order, have the longest streaks for consecutive winning seasons. Judson's streak will be at 30 after a win this week. Permian leads at 36, followed by Plano's 32. Permian & Plano's streaks are not current. More recently, nobody can claim to be better than Southlake Carroll. They are the new standard. I am sure Katy & Midland Lee are in there somewhere, they have been good for a good spell as well. Katy more so than Midland Lee. Smithson Valley is another team that more recently has had a good run, W-L record up there but no titles. When I say more recent, I mean within the last 10-15 yrs. I'm going back about 30 years for Judson, and a little further for Permian & Plano.

If WINS are the sole criteria, you will find the same teams mentioned already.
If STATE TITLES are the sole criteria, you will find the same teams mentioned already.

So in my book, it does not matter which criteria is used or even a combination of them all, you will see the same teams qualify. In no particular order, the teams I say would qualify would be:
Odessa Permian, Plano, Converse Judson, Southlake Carroll, Katy, & Midland Lee.

Go Rockets!

[zippy]

There are teams missing as well as info to base this on. Over the past 5 years, its SLC. However, didnt Midland Lee do about what they are doing now in the late 90's? If you go overall, then Judson, Permian, Katy, and a few others would be ahead of them. Judson has won they most titles, and they always seem to be good, so I picked them. After another 20 or so years, if SLC is still only at 1 loss, I will change my pick.

[toddg]

There are teams missing as well as info to base this on. Over the past 5 years, its SLC. However, didnt Midland Lee do about what they are doing now in the late 90's? If you go overall, then Judson, Permian, Katy, and a few others would be ahead of them. Judson has won they most titles, and they always seem to be good, so I picked them. After another 20 or so years, if SLC is still only at 1 loss, I will change my pick.


go to the TEXAS HS FOOTBALL message board click on any texas board and in the pinned section a poster(wos87) has put entire playoff histories of all the teams in it...very well researched and accurate worth a ck out if your an info nut like me.

[WOS87]

Mojo was a close 2nd however, Plano beat them in 4 Semi final appearances. I believe the only team to have a undefeated record against MOJO in the playoffs with 2 or more games.

Austin Reagan is the only team other than Plano that has beaten MOJO more than once in the playoffs ever and are 2-0 against them, both wins coming in the State Finals 1968 and 1970

[WOS87]

All-Time Best 5A State Playoff Records

1. Converse Judson (77-16, 83%)
2. Katy (51-14, 80%)
3. Odessa Permian (50-10-5, 77%)
4. Plano (44-15, 76%)
5. Midland Lee (44-16, 75%)

Should help a little

Plano has the most wins but they also have the 3rd most losses all-time as well behind Amarillo and Highland Park

Highest All-Time Playoff Winning Percentage Statewide
(Includes all playoff games in all UIL classifications of 11-man football 1920-2005 - 50 games played minimum)

These 27 programs have won 103 of the 336 total official UIL 11-man football state championships ever awarded. Teams in bold got >50% of their total wins in the largest classification.

1. Southlake Carroll 72-16-1=.8146
2. Celina 65-15-2=.8049
3. Odessa Permian 77-17-6=.8000
4. Katy 58-17-1=.7697
5. Converse Judson 76-23-1=.7650
6. Sealy 40-13-0=.7547
7. Schulenburg 56-18-4=.7436
8. Stephenville 50-17-1=.7426
9. La Marque 70-25-2=.7320
10. Cuero 63-23-1=.7299
11. Abilene 45-17-2=.7188
12. Sonora 47-18-2=.7164
13. Plano 82-34-2=.7034
14. Austin Westlake 47-19-3=.7029
15. Mart 69-29-1=.7020
16. Bremond 40-17-2=.6949
17. Midland Lee 45-19-3=.6940
18. CC Calallen 52-23-0=.6933
19. Groveton 72-31-5=.6898
20. Refugio 75-33-3=.6892
21. Gilmer 38-17-1=.6875
22. Wink 53-24-1=.6859
23. Wheeler 47-21-2=.6857
24. Old Waco High 35-15-4=.6851
25. Port Neches-Groves 39-18-1=.6810
26(t). Daingerfield 54-26-2=.6707
26(t). Brownwood 54-26-2=.6707

[ttech10]

However, didnt Midland Lee do about what they are doing now in the late 90's?

Well what do you consider they are doing now? Because in the late 90's they were winning State Championships

[lonny23]

The last two years that can not be said. Last year the combined losses of the teams Carroll played in the playoffs was 3. That included opening up the playoffs against a 9-1 team followed by playing a 9-2 team. Afterwards they played 4 straight undefeated teams. :eek:
Being undefeated is overrated. As such, SLC did play the toughest teams on the way to the title game, but not my much. I ran the numbers and here they are.

Trinity's opponents before the Finals:

Keller Fossil Ridge 6-5 171.97
Plano East 6-6 170.72
EP Franklin 11-2 176.77
A&M Consolidated 11-3 184.03

34-16 175.87 average

Judson before the Finals:

Seguin 7-4 169.20
SA O'Connor 8-4 181.51
Harlingen 10-3 181.25
S Westfield 11-1 201.13

36-12 183.27 average

SLC:

I MacArthur 9-2 176.73
Allen 9-3 177.93
Abilene 12-1 188.58
Plano 13-1 191.04
Lufkin 14-1 195.80

57-8 186.02 average

Katy:

FB Clements 7-4 163.12
Cy Creek 8-4 170.15
B West Brook 8-2 175.21
Cy Falls 9-5 178.15
S Valley 13-2 195.38

45-17 176.40 average

The point is every team ends up playing somebody on their way to the title game that's better than somebody one of the other teams played on their way to the Title game. Judson had the hardest opponent of the 4 teams on the way to the Title game. I don't focus so much on a team's worst game because the big picture is how good of a team can you beat. In theory if you can beat a pretty good team, you're going to set yourself up to beat another team that's not quite as good. The average SLC playoff opponent was 2.75 points better than the average Judson opponent. That's not much to speak of.

I know you can't definitively say this, but I'm going to mention it for argument's sake because it proves what I'm trying to say. If you look at these teams power ratings or the best team they beat in the playoffs:

Trinity could beat everybody the other 3 teams beat.
Judson could beat everybody the other 3 teams beat.
SLC could beat everybody the other 3 teams beat.
Katy could beat everybody the other 3 teams beat except Westfield.

When the 4 teams that make The Finals are 1, 2, 5 and 9 in the power ratings, they're going to win games whether they're playing #12 or #52. The whole point is you have to be better than the team in front of you. Personally, I'm most impressed by the best team you beat vs. the average of all the teams you beat. It's like this. If you beat Team B and they're better than Team C, you should probably also beat Team C. Team C can be very good, but you're going to still beat them.

[lonny23]

Austin Reagan is the only team other than Plano that has beaten MOJO more than once in the playoffs ever and are 2-0 against them, both wins coming in the State Finals 1968 and 1970
Some of us only got to play them once. Don't hold it against us!:D

[CCBoy]

Yes, Carter plays outside of Dallas in non-district, but I still think that district hurts them for the playoffs and non-district.
I agree and I wish that could be changed, but we face more than inner city schools. Our district hurts us tremendously.

[CoveMom]

I agree and I wish that could be changed, but we face more than inner city schools. Our district hurts us tremendously.

Gotcha, BUT...don't you play in a "district that hurts" by choice? NOT that we are begging for Carter to play in 4A...:D

[Plano Wildcat Fan]

Plano has the most wins but they also have the 3rd most losses all-time as well behind Amarillo and Highland Park
Highest All-Time Playoff Winning Percentage Statewide
(Includes all playoff games in all UIL classifications of 11-man football 1920-2005 - 50 games played minimum)

These 27 programs have won 103 of the 336 total official UIL 11-man football state championships ever awarded. Teams in bold got >50% of their total wins in the largest classification.

1. Southlake Carroll 72-16-1=.8146
2. Celina 65-15-2=.8049
3. Odessa Permian 77-17-6=.8000
4. Katy 58-17-1=.7697
5. Converse Judson 76-23-1=.7650
6. Sealy 40-13-0=.7547
7. Schulenburg 56-18-4=.7436
8. Stephenville 50-17-1=.7426
9. La Marque 70-25-2=.7320
10. Cuero 63-23-1=.7299
11. Abilene 45-17-2=.7188
12. Sonora 47-18-2=.7164
13. Plano 82-34-2=.7034
14. Austin Westlake 47-19-3=.7029
15. Mart 69-29-1=.7020
16. Bremond 40-17-2=.6949
17. Midland Lee 45-19-3=.6940
18. CC Calallen 52-23-0=.6933
19. Groveton 72-31-5=.6898
20. Refugio 75-33-3=.6892
21. Gilmer 38-17-1=.6875
22. Wink 53-24-1=.6859
23. Wheeler 47-21-2=.6857
24. Old Waco High 35-15-4=.6851
25. Port Neches-Groves 39-18-1=.6810
26(t). Daingerfield 54-26-2=.6707
26(t). Brownwood 54-26-2=.6707

What does having the 3rd most losses in the playoffs matter? It tells me they made the playoffs a heck of alot more than any team in the state. You can't win state every year. The stat on loses in the playoffs just proves my point of Plano's dominance when comes to making the playoffs over the years. Especially when only 1 team made it before 1982.

[ttech10]

This may be a little off topic but I am noticing that almost all of the teams on the list above me have a tie. How do you have a tie in HS football never the less Texas HS Football Playoffs.

[JoeC]

Ok, joeC except my apology. When it comes to defending Permian sometimes I just shoot up among em. When I first saw this post My first comment or two concerned the lack of limits in the question and therefore a no end subject. I fell into a couple of these last summer and now I've done it again. On the 10-9 game colder that heck and Russell Wheatley kicked a fg for 62 yds. Good luck on moving.


Apology accepted my man. Believe me I understand. In Texas, HS football is about passion baby!!! :D - Sometimes it can get the best of you. :o It took me the better part of ten years to get over that 62 yard FG... even now, sometimes I still have relapses, ***:( sob, I… sniff, sniff, snuffle, snuffle, (deep breath – relax, relax)... sorry man, I got to go.... But before I go, good luck on the rest of your season…:cool:

[Firebird]

This may be a little off topic but I am noticing that almost all of the teams on the list above me have a tie. How do you have a tie in HS football never the less Texas HS Football Playoffs.

For a long time you could finish in a tie in HS. I forget when the UIL introduced overtime, but it was in the mid 1990's.

You could tie in the PO's too. If a PO game ended in a tie, the team with the most penetrations advanced, after penetrations were tied, the team with the most 1st downs advanced.

[maxtor]

De La Salle!!

Yes DLS is a Dynasty and so are about 50 other teams across the nation that could outdo any team in texas in the Dyanasty dept. But none of them play against Texas public schools with uil rules.

[ttech10]

the team with the most penetrations advanced

What is penetrations may I ask

[dragonfootballfan]

What is penetrations may I ask
number of times a team reached the redzone on offense

[bullrock]

Careful now, this good get real ugly!

[CCBoy]

Gotcha, BUT...don't you play in a "district that hurts" by choice? NOT that we are begging for Carter to play in 4A...:D
Yes it is by choice, but I would rather stay 5A as many others would. Some of us would love to drop, but 5A is still a more competive class all around. A lot of 4A teams can still compete on a 5A level, but not as many can. If Carter drops to 4A we will still have to play inner city schools in Dallas for district. Kimball hasn't lost a district game in 4A since their drop (not much competition in Dallas).

[dragonsdaddy]

What is penetrations may I ask
a penetration was counted once a team ran a play while inside the 20. there were situations where a team got inside the 20 on a fourth down play without making a first, or got to the 19 only to get a penalty before running a play, thus no penetration. a very prehistoric and asinine process to decide who played on.

[farmerfan]

Being undefeated is overrated. As such, SLC did play the toughest teams on the way to the title game, but not my much. I ran the numbers and here they are.

Trinity's opponents before the Finals:

Keller Fossil Ridge 6-5 171.97
Plano East 6-6 170.72
EP Franklin 11-2 176.77
A&M Consolidated 11-3 184.03

34-16 175.87 average

Judson before the Finals:

Seguin 7-4 169.20
SA O'Connor 8-4 181.51
Harlingen 10-3 181.25
S Westfield 11-1 201.13

36-12 183.27 average

SLC:

I MacArthur 9-2 176.73
Allen 9-3 177.93
Abilene 12-1 188.58
Plano 13-1 191.04
Lufkin 14-1 195.80

57-8 186.02 average

Katy:

FB Clements 7-4 163.12
Cy Creek 8-4 170.15
B West Brook 8-2 175.21
Cy Falls 9-5 178.15
S Valley 13-2 195.38

45-17 176.40 average

The point is every team ends up playing somebody on their way to the title game that's better than somebody one of the other teams played on their way to the Title game. Judson had the hardest opponent of the 4 teams on the way to the Title game. I don't focus so much on a team's worst game because the big picture is how good of a team can you beat. In theory if you can beat a pretty good team, you're going to set yourself up to beat another team that's not quite as good. The average SLC playoff opponent was 2.75 points better than the average Judson opponent. That's not much to speak of.

I know you can't definitively say this, but I'm going to mention it for argument's sake because it proves what I'm trying to say. If you look at these teams power ratings or the best team they beat in the playoffs:

Trinity could beat everybody the other 3 teams beat.
Judson could beat everybody the other 3 teams beat.
SLC could beat everybody the other 3 teams beat.
Katy could beat everybody the other 3 teams beat except Westfield.

When the 4 teams that make The Finals are 1, 2, 5 and 9 in the power ratings, they're going to win games whether they're playing #12 or #52. The whole point is you have to be better than the team in front of you. Personally, I'm most impressed by the best team you beat vs. the average of all the teams you beat. It's like this. If you beat Team B and they're better than Team C, you should probably also beat Team C. Team C can be very good, but you're going to still beat them.


Thats the difference in some, some take what they see with their own two eyes to judge how good a team is and the other puts all his stock in stupid power ratings.
The fact was that last year Carroll did in fact have to play 6 good football teams in the playoffs, something you dont ever see especially playing 4 undefeated teams and no going undefeated epsecially in West Texas, DFW or East Texasis not overrarated, only you would think so :rolleyes:

[maxtor]

You're wrong. Judson plays tough playoff teams in non-district and district and that prepares them to be better than their opponents in the playoffs.Didnt I PRETTY MUCH AGREE WITH THAT? Judson plays teams with speed and good skill players to tune up for the playoffs. Once they get to Week 11, they've already had to raise their game to higher levels than their opponents have had to do.So? I dont see what you disagree with that I said. Judson plays a tough reg schedule then breezes through the playoffs playing duds until the semis.
Maxtor

[maxtor]

All-Time Best 5A State Playoff Records

1. Converse Judson (77-16, 83%)
2. Katy (51-14, 80%)
3. Odessa Permian (50-10-5, 77%)
4. Plano (44-15, 76%)
5. Midland Lee (44-16, 75%)

Should help a little


#1 Southlake Carroll 23-1 95%
2. Converse Judson (77-16, 83%)
3. Katy (51-14, 80%)
4. Odessa Permian (50-10-5, 77%)
5. Plano (44-15, 76%)
6. Midland Lee (44-16, 75%)

[SLCDad]

When the 4 teams that make The Finals are 1, 2, 5 and 9 in the power ratings, they're going to win games whether they're playing #12 or #52. The whole point is you have to be better than the team in front of you. Personally, I'm most impressed by the best team you beat vs. the average of all the teams you beat. It's like this. If you beat Team B and they're better than Team C, you should probably also beat Team C. Team C can be very good, but you're going to still beat them.Remember the power ratings that you posted were after all games were played. The result you found is almost a "self fulfilling" prophesy. Those teams that made the finals are going to get the highest ratings and those teams that lose are going to get lower ratings. This may seem to be a stupid (or obvious) point, but the bottom line is that "of course the finalists can beat the teams that didn't make it to the finals". The fact that they made the finals gave them the high rating in the first place.

This isn't true in every case, but I'd bet that you can take any year and get pretty much the same result that you found.

[maxtor]

One thing is for sure is if SLC continues like they are for a couple more years then all this will be a moot point.

This year SLC is on fire. They have a decent chance at winning state again.

Next year the key players are back on offense.

Isnt SLCs frosh teams something like 18-0 or something.

Plus Dodge has me for personal advice. Do you really think that hes talking to someone in the press box during the game? No, hes talking to me whos in the stands. I tell you its tough putting mustard on 5 hotdogs while holding cotton candy and 84 ounce sprite and telling Dodge what the heck to do.

[SLCDad]

#1 Southlake Carroll 23-1 95%
2. Converse Judson (77-16, 83%)
3. Katy (51-14, 80%)
4. Odessa Permian (50-10-5, 77%)
5. Plano (44-15, 76%)
6. Midland Lee (44-16, 75%)I was thinking the same thing when I saw Katyexrb's post but I assumed he had some kind of minimum number of games required to make the list.

By the way, not to be picky, but SLC's 5A playoff winning percentage is 96% (95.8% rounds up).

Also, do you realize it's going to take 13 more years for SLC to lose or tie as many 5A playoff games as the other 5 teams on the list. hee hee

[bullrock]

I wish I knew how to insert quotes. Looking at the number of wins in the playoffs, by my calculations, if SLC won every playoff game (6) for the next 9 years, they would equal Judsons total (hee hee). I never realized there was such a discrepancy in total playoff wins between the top 5 teams in the poll. I'm not including SLC because they have only been here for 4 years. If they continue on the current trend and win out for the next 20 years they will have 143 playoff victories. That's a total of 24 years, I believe the same number of years it took Judson to accumalate their playoff victories.

[farmerfan]

With all these votes going to others I would like to know who these teams the othes are voting for are.

[WOS87]

#1 Southlake Carroll 23-1 95%
2. Converse Judson (77-16, 83%)
3. Katy (51-14, 80%)
4. Odessa Permian (50-10-5, 77%)
5. Plano (44-15, 76%)
6. Midland Lee (44-16, 75%)

Now, now... you can't just choose random teams to rank and leave the majority off. I've got Midland Lee at 11th, behind Midland actually....

Highest Playoff Game Winning Percentage in 5A (1980-2005)
(Ties are counted as one-half of a win)

1. Southlake Carroll 95.83% 23-1-0
2. Beaumont French 91.67% 5-0-1
3. Converse Judson 81.18% 75-17-1
4. Odessa Permian 80.77% 50-10-5
5. Smithson Valley 78.95% 15-4-0
6. Katy 78.46% 51-14-0
7. Cedar Park 75.00% 3-1-0
8. Plano 73.33% 44-16-0
9. Midland 72.73% 8-3-0
10. Lufkin 71.25% 28-11-1
11. Midland Lee 71.09% 44-17-3
12. Marshall 70.00% 17-7-1
13. Lake Highlands 69.32% 30-13-1
14. Flower Mound Marcus 69.23% 1