Immobile Quarterbacks

[FeeltheHaka]

Why can't the immobile, "pocket passer" type QB's such as Drew Bledsoe just get with a speed coach to add speed and elusiveness? To me, there is no excuse for this. How many other athletes have overcome any physical shortcomings? Even if he is a "pocket passer," he is going to get chased at some point; and the extra training will pay off even if it gets one extra touchdown. I know that if I had 300 pound linemen wanting to do me harm, I would do whatever it takes to mitigate this.
What kind of physical regimen do QBs use to train? It seems that most of them have physical ability of a kicker or punter or golfer. Sure, it is a skill position; but what about skill plus physical ability? For the money these guys make, and their leadership responsibility; they should be taking the lead, and earning their pay.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Why can't the immobile, "pocket passer" type QB's such as Drew Bledsoe just get with a speed coach to add speed and elusiveness? To me, there is no excuse for this. How many other athletes have overcome any physical shortcomings? Even if he is a "pocket passer," he is going to get chased at some point; and the extra training will pay off even if it gets one extra touchdown. I know that if I had 300 pound linemen wanting to do me harm, I would do whatever it takes to mitigate this.
What kind of physical regimen do QBs use to train? It seems that most of them have physical ability of a kicker or punter or golfer. Sure, it is a skill position; but what about skill plus physical ability? For the money these guys make, and their leadership responsibility; they should be taking the lead, and earning their pay.

Are you, specifically, talking about NFL QB's? College? HS? Because there's a difference, not just in QB play, but overall level of the game, itself.

[backthepack]

Well, this being in the NFL discussion, I would think that he is talking about the NFL. :p And in a way I agree.

[FeeltheHaka]

Are you, specifically, talking about NFL QB's? College? HS? Because there's a difference, not just in QB play, but overall level of the game, itself.

I'm talking NFL. In High School and College, it doesn't seem that there is such a divide between the speed of the QBs compared to others on the field.
In the pros, these guys have the resources to hire a speed coach as well as other resources to get the necessary speed. Like I implied before, There is a difference between getting hit buy an NFL guy compared to high school and college. Having observed this: I would do whatever it takes to avoid getting hit by an NFL linemen.

[RP-3]

I'm talking NFL. In High School and College, it doesn't seem that there is such a divide between the speed of the QBs compared to others on the field.
In the pros, these guys have the resources to hire a speed coach as well as other resources to get the necessary speed. Like I implied before, There is a difference between getting hit buy an NFL guy compared to high school and college. Having observed this: I would do whatever it takes to avoid getting hit by an NFL linemen.


I understand what you are saying but some guys are born slow and not a speed coach in the world can increase their speed. From my understanding, speed coachs work with guys that already have speed not someone that has been slow all his life.

[zippy]

I understand what you are saying but some guys are born slow and not a speed coach in the world can increase their speed. From my understanding, speed coachs work with guys that already have speed not someone that has been slow all his life.

I agree. You cant teach speed. The ones that do work with world class sprinters might get a couple of tenths shaved off. However, this could be the difference between Gold and not placing. Its not going to help Bledsoe. The only thing I see that will help him is to hang it up.:D He has better speed than Peyton Manning does, and he is just fine. Bledsoe needs more than speed work.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Here's the skinny:
In hs, the game is 80% athletically dominant. In college, the game is 60% athletically dominated. In the NFL, the game is 30% athletically dominated. Over the course of a players' career, he sees the level of athleticism balance out. By the time he reaches the NFL, nearly all of the (highly trained) athletes are similiar in height, weight, size, speed, agility, aggression, work ethic and power. The 2 biggest factors being tenacity and technique.

That said, a QB is different from all of these aspects because he has to develop his technique (range of motion, ball placement, feet placement, vision, scheme terminology, etc.) from a younger age. With the exception of athletic freaks like Michael Vick, QB's in the past have focused their time on being solid passers (or Pro-typical), rather than athletic playmakers. Pocket passers still win the big games (i.e...Brady, Big Ben, etc.) but they also take more of a beating. (Sack-wise) The game, at nearly every other position on the field, is so much faster (powerful and athletic) that they can't possibly avoid the Dwight Freeney's and Julius Pepper's. Their hope is that they have the right play calling and protection, upfront.

Saying all of this leads me to this, the older QB's (Bledsoe) never pushed their, overall, athleticism to its' fullest potential, because they've never needed it. They always had a better arm, and most had the right system and protection upfront. And even if they wanted to truly work on their speed, in Bledsoe's case, you'd have a 36 yr-old (with bad knees) trying to enhance his speed work....all the while his vision and timing is fading. The same goes for Favre. He still feels he can bullet a pass into triple coverage and he hasn't figured out...he can't anymore.

Bledsoe's problems are a combination of things....mobility being 1 of them. But the athleticism has finally caught up with the Pocket Passer. Although I will say, it's a give and take. Vick, while a freak of an athlete, has used his feet just as much as he's used his arm, which is why he doesn't have the vision and ball placement of Bledsoe (in his prime). When Vick takes a few more hits and his speed slows he'll have much more of a problem playing the QB position, than the normal Pocket Passer - who is more equiped to see coverage, rather than avoid the rush.

Perfect example of the typical Posket Passer up-bringing:
Ryan Mallett at Texarkana High. 6'7 240 lbs...has a cannon (x's 2) for an arm. I promise you, they aren't teaching this kid agility, let alone helping him build speed. He'll be deemed a Pocket Passer, with no dual-threat mobility. He'll need a scheme that works for him (at Michigan) and great protection, upfront...or he'll take alot of sacks. (Especially if he makes it to the League.)

In todays NFL game...
There's just no way for a 25 yrs-old QB, of whom was never taught to be athletic or mobile, to learn to be quicker and faster than a defensive end, who has spent his last 15 yrs training to be an athletic monster (Jevon Kearse) - thus sprinting down QB's and feasting on them.

No....what Bledsoe (aka Matt Leinart in 10 yrs) needs is a scheme that fits his non-athletic frame and, for the love of God, an OFFENSIVE LINE that blocks.

[FeeltheHaka]

I hear exactly what you all are saying. But, doing something is better than nothing. Add .1 to your speed could be the difference between making the game saving touchdown, or recieveing a hit that causes some serious hurting. Let alone, a career ending injury. I don't buy too much into the he is naturally slow, and speed can't be taught. The second one says, "can't;" they cease to be a professional in my eyes. Just like any profession, one must sharpen there skills. I would think a professional would do whatever it takes (within reason) to add to his skills. If the game is going to more mobile QBs, then by God; I would be hitting the track the next morning.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

I hear exactly what you all are saying. But, doing something is better than nothing. Add .1 to your speed could be the difference between making the game saving touchdown, or recieveing a hit that causes some serious hurting. Let alone, a career ending injury. I don't buy too much into the he is naturally slow, and speed can't be taught. The second one says, "can't;" they cease to be a professional in my eyes. Just like any profession, one must sharpen there skills. I would think a professional would do whatever it takes (within reason) to add to his skills. If the game is going to more mobile QBs, then by God; I would be hitting the track the next morning.

Haka,
I'm telling you, bro...just using what I endured as a Pro player, speed can be taught...at the age of 14 or 17 or even 21...but not at the age of 36, or hell, even 26. Again, you're talking about a QB that plays the most difficult position on the field....and having to see the a field that looks like streaks across the sky. (Speed) Having to learn that kind of vision and those many coverages takes time to master. (Years) Not much time to speed train. Don't get me wrong, they do work on those things, as well as strength training. But their regiment is nowhere near the regiment of a Junior Seau or Julius Peppers.

Also...
You can't just take a 26 or 28 yr old and say, "We're going take you from running a 4.98 40 yd to running a 4.68 40 yd, in 1 off-season, so that you can try and outrun Jevon Kearse - who has trained since the age of 14 to run a 4.51 40 yd dash at 265 lbs. "

And last....from about the age of 26, the punishment of playing the games, since 7 yrs of age, begins to take a toll on you. It no longer repairs, let alone builds, muscle the way it did when you were 18 or 22. Just going out and hitting the track may do more harm, than good. It sounds weird, but when you guys - in the crowd - see a viscious hit you say "Wow! That was a hit!"...the player gets up slowly, shakes it off and walks back to the huddle. He wont wait to feel it much tomorrow or even next week....he feels it for the rest of his life.....every single day. I can attest to that. Meaning, Bledsoe, probably has 20 or 30 deep muscle bruises that will stay within his body for a long time. (Lifetime?) If he's anything like me, he probably aches, while he sleeps. (Most Pro players do.) And this accompanied by cracked ribs, shot knees, cracked jaws, mangled fingered, slip discs and sore-ankle syndrome.;)

Make no mistake, these are Professionals.

[LUFPAN]

Here's the skinny:
In hs, the game is 80% athletically dominant. In college, the game is 60% athletically dominated. In the NFL, the game is 30% athletically dominated. Over the course of a players' career, he sees the level of athleticism balance out. By the time he reaches the NFL, nearly all of the (highly trained) athletes are similiar in height, weight, size, speed, agility, aggression, work ethic and power. The 2 biggest factors being tenacity and technique.

That said, a QB is different from all of these aspects because he has to develop his technique (range of motion, ball placement, feet placement, vision, scheme terminology, etc.) from a younger age. With the exception of athletic freaks like Michael Vick, QB's in the past have focused their time on being solid passers (or Pro-typical), rather than athletic playmakers. Pocket passers still win the big games (i.e...Brady, Big Ben, etc.) but they also take more of a beating. (Sack-wise) The game, at nearly every other position on the field, is so much faster (powerful and athletic) that they can't possibly avoid the Dwight Freeney's and Julius Pepper's. Their hope is that they have the right play calling and protection, upfront.

Saying all of this leads me to this, the older QB's (Bledsoe) never pushed their, overall, athleticism to its' fullest potential, because they've never needed it. They always had a better arm, and most had the right system and protection upfront. And even if they wanted to truly work on their speed, in Bledsoe's case, you'd have a 36 yr-old (with bad knees) trying to enhance his speed work....all the while his vision and timing is fading. The same goes for Favre. He still feels he can bullet a pass into triple coverage and he hasn't figured out...he can't anymore.

Bledsoe's problems are a combination of things....mobility being 1 of them. But the athleticism has finally caught up with the Pocket Passer. Although I will say, it's a give and take. Vick, while a freak of an athlete, has used his feet just as much as he's used his arm, which is why he doesn't have the vision and ball placement of Bledsoe (in his prime). When Vick takes a few more hits and his speed slows he'll have much more of a problem playing the QB position, than the normal Pocket Passer - who is more equiped to see coverage, rather than avoid the rush.

Perfect example of the typical Posket Passer up-bringing:
Ryan Mallett at Texarkana High. 6'7 240 lbs...has a cannon (x's 2) for an arm. I promise you, they aren't teaching this kid agility, let alone helping him build speed. He'll be deemed a Pocket Passer, with no dual-threat mobility. He'll need a scheme that works for him (at Michigan) and great protection, upfront...or he'll take alot of sacks. (Especially if he makes it to the League.)

In todays NFL game...
There's just no way for a 25 yrs-old QB, of whom was never taught to be athletic or mobile, to learn to be quicker and faster than a defensive end, who has spent his last 15 yrs training to be an athletic monster (Jevon Kearse) - thus sprinting down QB's and feasting on them.

No....what Bledsoe (aka Matt Leinart in 10 yrs) needs is a scheme that fits his non-athletic frame and, for the love of God, an OFFENSIVE LINE that blocks.

Great analysis from The Great One...spoken like a pro / coach.

[FeeltheHaka]

Haka,
I'm telling you, bro...just using what I endured as a Pro player, speed can be taught...at the age of 14 or 17 or even 21...but not at the age of 36, or hell, even 26. Again, you're talking about a QB that plays the most difficult position on the field....and having to see the a field that looks like streaks across the sky. (Speed) Having to learn that kind of vision and those many coverages takes time to master. (Years) Not much time to speed train. Don't get me wrong, they do work on those things, as well as strength training. But their regiment is nowhere near the regiment of a Junior Seau or Julius Peppers.

Also...
You can't just take a 26 or 28 yr old and say, "We're going take you from running a 4.98 40 yd to running a 4.68 40 yd, in 1 off-season, so that you can try and outrun Jevon Kearse - who has trained since the age of 14 to run a 4.51 40 yd dash at 265 lbs. "

And last....from about the age of 26, the punishment of playing the games, since 7 yrs of age, begins to take a toll on you. It no longer repairs, let alone builds, muscle the way it did when you were 18 or 22. Just going out and hitting the track may do more harm, than good. It sounds weird, but when you guys - in the crowd - see a viscious hit you say "Wow! That was a hit!"...the player gets up slowly, shakes it off and walks back to the huddle. He wont wait to feel it much tomorrow or even next week....he feels it for the rest of his life.....every single day. I can attest to that. Meaning, Bledsoe, probably has 20 or 30 deep muscle bruises that will stay within his body for a long time. (Lifetime?) If he's anything like me, he probably aches, while he sleeps. (Most Pro players do.) And this accompanied by cracked ribs, shot knees, cracked jaws, mangled fingered, slip discs and sore-ankle syndrome.;)

Make no mistake, these are Professionals.


You definately put a lot in perspective for me, (and hopefully others) , and I appreciate it.
One thing I can definately attest to is what you are saying about the hits you
all take, and it affecting you for life. When I worked in the medical field, I worked in orthopaedics. Alot of people I saw had sustained injuries from years ago. A couple of them being former NFL. When I watch pro ball, and see the hits; I sometimes can almost feel them. I take into account that these guys are heavy, fast and strong. Not to mention that they have years of experience knowing exactly how to hit someone as to inflict maximum pain and punishment. I remember Emmit Smith saying in an interview once that just about every time he gets tackled that it is like being in a major car accident.

[jtk1519]

This is not a matter of speed. You can work a guy out and improve his 40 time, but that doesn't mean anything. The problem is not speed for Bledsoe, the problem is elusiveness and the two are not one in the same.

Let's take Matt Leinart for example (even though we don't have much pro data to select from). Leinart runs about a 5 flat in the 40. He's not fast, but he can be elusive. He has that 6th sense that most good QBs have that allows him to feel pressure that he cannot see and then he has the elusiveness to buy a little time. He doesn't have to have great straight ahead speed. What a QB needs more than anything is good lateral speed and great feet. If you watch Bledsoe, it looks like his feet are made of lead. The slightest bit of pressure completely screws up Bledsoe's footwork which is why you see him throw some of the bad passes that he does.

On the subject of feet, watch Peyton Manning when he’s in the pocket. Where Bledsoe’ feet are taking root in the ground, Peyton’s are constantly moving. This allows Peyton to adjust his position in the pocket and be able to properly set his feet the way he should. That is why you can see Peyton move in the pocket, but still throw a great pass when flushed. He’s no more mobile than Bledsoe, but his feet are in constant motion allowing him to set and throw in a split second.

If you want to judge a QB, don’t look at his arm first, look at his feet. Everything a QB does, starts with their feet. If they are solid there, they can overcome a lack of arm or pure speed.

[FeeltheHaka]

This is not a matter of speed. You can work a guy out and improve his 40 time, but that doesn't mean anything. The problem is not speed for Bledsoe, the problem is elusiveness and the two are not one in the same.

Let's take Matt Leinart for example (even though we don't have much pro data to select from). Leinart runs about a 5 flat in the 40. He's not fast, but he can be elusive. He has that 6th sense that most good QBs have that allows him to feel pressure that he cannot see and then he has the elusiveness to buy a little time. He doesn't have to have great straight ahead speed. What a QB needs more than anything is good lateral speed and great feet. If you watch Bledsoe, it looks like his feet are made of lead. The slightest bit of pressure completely screws up Bledsoe's footwork which is why you see him throw some of the bad passes that he does.

On the subject of feet, watch Peyton Manning when he’s in the pocket. Where Bledsoe’ feet are taking root in the ground, Peyton’s are constantly moving. This allows Peyton to adjust his position in the pocket and be able to properly set his feet the way he should. That is why you can see Peyton move in the pocket, but still throw a great pass when flushed. He’s no more mobile than Bledsoe, but his feet are in constant motion allowing him to set and throw in a split second.

If you want to judge a QB, don’t look at his arm first, look at his feet. Everything a QB does, starts with their feet. If they are solid there, they can overcome a lack of arm or pure speed.

I totally agree footwork is essential, and I think you make a great point comparing Manning's footwork to Bledsoe's. Maybe this is something Bledsoe might be able to address. I do like the way that Doug Flutie used to immediately roll out towards the side right after taking the snap.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

This is not a matter of speed. You can work a guy out and improve his 40 time, but that doesn't mean anything. The problem is not speed for Bledsoe, the problem is elusiveness and the two are not one in the same.

Let's take Matt Leinart for example (even though we don't have much pro data to select from). Leinart runs about a 5 flat in the 40. He's not fast, but he can be elusive. He has that 6th sense that most good QBs have that allows him to feel pressure that he cannot see and then he has the elusiveness to buy a little time. He doesn't have to have great straight ahead speed. What a QB needs more than anything is good lateral speed and great feet. If you watch Bledsoe, it looks like his feet are made of lead. The slightest bit of pressure completely screws up Bledsoe's footwork which is why you see him throw some of the bad passes that he does.

On the subject of feet, watch Peyton Manning when he’s in the pocket. Where Bledsoe’ feet are taking root in the ground, Peyton’s are constantly moving. This allows Peyton to adjust his position in the pocket and be able to properly set his feet the way he should. That is why you can see Peyton move in the pocket, but still throw a great pass when flushed. He’s no more mobile than Bledsoe, but his feet are in constant motion allowing him to set and throw in a split second.

If you want to judge a QB, don’t look at his arm first, look at his feet. Everything a QB does, starts with their feet. If they are solid there, they can overcome a lack of arm or pure speed.

All of what you said reinforces what I said.

But...
I knew/know plenty of NFL QB's who train utilizing speed and agility drills, with the understanding that speed training will help give them the neccessities of mobility. (Elusiveness.) Most QB's that are deemed Pocket Passers don't have the physical intangibles, obviously because they were either born without, or were never taught, the fundamentals of escaping and evading. Thus, most QB's develop into stand-in-the-pocket-max-protect QB's that even if they had a sense of surroundings, they still wouldn't have the needed mobility to evade.

Elusiveness is a sixth sense, but that has to do with knowing your surroundings. (And after nearly 27yrs of playing football, I would think Bledsoe has a pretty good feel...or he trusts his O-line way too much.) Once you feel pressure, you must be mobile enough to evade the rush and/or breakdown of the pocket. Speed training definitely helps. Agility drills and foot-work training is also key.

Very few QB's will outrun an NFL LB or Defensive End, but evading them, in order to by time, is something all NFL QB's train for. (Actually, they need to start much younger....and get the due attention. Not half-***.)

You can sense the rush, but it would behoove you to have the mobility to evade, reset your feet and fire the ball up the field - for a completion....or make an incredible pass, while on a dead run. (I.E..Vick or McNabb.)

Speed and agility work definitely helps, but then there's lack of protection, no sense of pocket breakdown, coverage sacks and etc.

Oh, and in regards to Peyton...
Peyton is 29 and hasn't been sacked nearly as much as a 34 yr-old Bledsoe (as we all know..Bledsoe is one of the most sacked QB's of all-time...#2, I believe). Peyton has a different feel for his O-line, than Bledsoe with his ever-changing O-line. Plus, Manning is familiar with his WR's, which enable him to record lesser coverage sacks. I defnitely can vouch that Peyton is more mobile than the physically-worn Bledsoe, but I agree that he has a few more intangibles that enable him to release the ball more accurately - with more velocity. That aside, Peyton will eventually get there.

[jtk1519]

A lot of QBs when they get older, tend to regress if you will. That "6th sense" starts to deteriorate to what you might see from a rookie or 2nd year QB. Their decision making becomes questionable because the older QB is too confident in skills that are no longer at their peak just as young QBs tend to be too confident in skills that have yet to reach their peak.

The reality is that from a purely physical and production standpoint, older QBs like Drew Bledsoe and Brett Favre, are really no different than Matt Leinart or Alex Smith. The difference is that those young guys are progressing while the old guys are regressing.

[dragonfootballfan]

according to Joe Theisman all you have to do is put a quarterback in the shotgun. Or thats atleast what I heard over and over again during that game.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

A lot of QBs when they get older, tend to regress if you will. That "6th sense" starts to deteriorate to what you might see from a rookie or 2nd year QB. Their decision making becomes questionable because the older QB is too confident in skills that are no longer at their peak just as young QBs tend to be too confident in skills that have yet to reach their peak.

The reality is that from a purely physical and production standpoint, older QBs like Drew Bledsoe and Brett Favre, are really no different than Matt Leinart or Alex Smith. The difference is that those young guys are progressing while the old guys are regressing.

When I played, I found that younger QB's (definitely Rookies) were confident in their athletic ability. The older QB's were more confident in their technique and experience. There was an enormous difference in those who had proven and those who had yet to prove, because of the said experience or lack there of.

Older QB's are different than younger QB's from a physical standpoint, but not neccessarily from a production standpoint. Those are different aspects, all together. One has to do with your athletic ability and the other has to do with your achievements. QB's, like Bledsoe, feel they can achieve, utilizing their knowledge and mastering of the passing game, while QB's, like Vick, feel they can achieve using mainly their athleticism. Usually, there's more to it.

It makes sense to say the young athletes progress, while the old athletes regress. That, unfortunately, is the way of the NFL athlete. And usually when older QB's have success, they tend to have a solid surrounding cast...i.e..solid run game, good pass protection and solid wr's.

Again, all of this is based on my experience and knowledge of a game I played for several years...on all levels. I don't need to learn it, again....geesz, I'm trying to forget some of it.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

according to Joe Theisman all you have to do is put a quarterback in the shotgun. Or thats atleast what I heard over and over again during that game.

With certain QB's, who lack alot of mobility, a 5-step drop (let alone 7) could be difficult....especially if your offensive line is horrid. He was suggesting putting either QB in the shotgun in order to have a chance to see the field and get a pass off, without having to lose time on the drop. Its just to allow more time. I think that's what he was refering to. Now, there are some QB's that love to make quick reads (P. Manning) from the shotgun, in order to see the entire field, often focusing on breakdowns of the defense to capitalize.

Also, alot of NFL passes work directly in relation to 3-step or 5-step drops. They're called "timed routes". (Primarily used in the NFL, and some in College.) And a defense (I loved this:p ) is keen to seeing the lack of mobility in a QB, so they assume there may be an effort - if under center - to try and get the ball off in a quick slant or wr screen....or any other quick plays...i.e...dump-offs, up's and - in's and outs', rb-look-and-go's, etc. A QB would simply count his steps and release, sometimes without locating a target. (If the defense masks the call, he'd then audible to a slow-count-check-off....or rb-screen or draw.)

A non-mobile QB could benefit more in a shotgun, but you give up the playaction in doing so, which can hurt a QB who isn't as mechanically sound as a Peyton Manning.

[GoOwls]

I may be wrong, but I think Troy Aikman would be considered an im-mobile, pocket passer. He had a pretty good career. In fact , he and Bledsoe are pretty similar. THe main difference is that Aikman had a line that protected him and a running game that kept the pressure off him and his line.

The Cowboys have neither and Bledsoe is doomed, just like Troy was at the end of his career when his line was starting to disintegrate.

Romo will only fare a little better, he can't out run those defensive players.....and he must reduce his mental errors or he will fare much worse.

To the Romo guys, be careful what you ask for.....you just might get it... and now you got it.

[Diablos]

16 sacks for a loss of 117 yds....8 interceptions.......can Romo do worse? Maybe.........



I think it was you that brought up the cap room as well.....Figure this....if Dallas doesn't add a TO for the exact same money they could have gotten Brees.......



Which would u do?

[GoOwls]

16 sacks for a loss of 117 yds....8 interceptions.......can Romo do worse? Maybe.........



I think it was you that brought up the cap room as well.....Figure this....if Dallas doesn't add a TO for the exact same money they could have gotten Brees.......



Which would u do?

Probably Brees, but they didn't sign him due to the injury questions. They were apparently wrong, but at the time it was hard to find fault in their decision. Hindsight is always 20/20.

[Diablos]

Probably Brees, but they didn't sign him due to the injury questions. They were apparently wrong, but at the time it was hard to find fault in their decision. Hindsight is always 20/20.



*laughs......Jerry likes baseball players instead.....niceeeeeeee

[GoOwls]

*laughs......Jerry likes baseball players instead.....niceeeeeeee

He also likes his three rings. Niceeeeeeeer.

[CLFalcon2006]

16 sacks for a loss of 117 yds....8 interceptions.......can Romo do worse? Maybe.........



I think it was you that brought up the cap room as well.....Figure this....if Dallas doesn't add a TO for the exact same money they could have gotten Brees.......



Which would u do?

With Romo you'll see sacks go down but INT's go up. Personally I'd rather have a whole bunch of sacks than a whole bunch of INT's. You wont get a turnover as much with sacks as you will with an Interceptions (Your John Madden saying of the day :D )

[svhorns]

With Romo you'll see sacks go down but INT's go up. Personally I'd rather have a whole bunch of sacks than a whole bunch of INT's. You wont get a turnover as much with sacks as you will with an Interceptions (Your John Madden saying of the day :D )
INT's will stay the same if not lower as the season moves along... Sacks will go down also...

[ThEgReAtOnE]

INT's will stay the same if not lower as the season moves along... Sacks will go down also...

Classic case of surroundings. Sacks were common with Bledsoe, because he physically was unable to evade the defender. This due in part, largely, to the fact that the Offensive Line couldn't even do a decent job of blocking, thus giving Bledsoe very little - to no - time in the pocket. However, one could say he definitely held onto the football longer than he should've, on several occassions....and on other occassions he made very poor decisions. Ints could become common, as it seems - a young Rookie'ish - Romo is amped up and ready to make plays happen....thus the reason for forcing 2 ints, Monday night. He's fresh and even though he's been on an NFL team for 3 or 4 yrs, he will have to figure out that Regular-Season speed doesn't equal Pre-Season speed, and the overall quality of play is higher. He may force more passes, but only as the result of pressure, due mainly to the lack of blocking taking place on the Offensive Line, combined with intimidating factors. (I.E...Parcells, J. Jones, Fans...and the fact that the Cowboys are poised to make a Super Bowl run.)

In part, it all leads back to the Offensive Line giving the QB plenty of time to look - then fire - down field, or pull the ball down and scramble.

This is cause and effect, much like any other QB situation in the NFL.

If you were to rate Romo's/Bledsoe's surroundings, I think it would be:

RB's = B+
OL = C-
WR's = A
TE's = B+

Just imagine if the OL was a B or even a B+.;)

[mad_fan]

Here's the skinny:
In hs, the game is 80% athletically dominant. In college, the game is 60% athletically dominated. In the NFL, the game is 30% athletically dominated. Over the course of a players' career, he sees the level of athleticism balance out. By the time he reaches the NFL, nearly all of the (highly trained) athletes are similiar in height, weight, size, speed, agility, aggression, work ethic and power. The 2 biggest factors being tenacity and technique.

That said, a QB is different from all of these aspects because he has to develop his technique (range of motion, ball placement, feet placement, vision, scheme terminology, etc.) from a younger age. With the exception of athletic freaks like Michael Vick, QB's in the past have focused their time on being solid passers (or Pro-typical), rather than athletic playmakers. Pocket passers still win the big games (i.e...Brady, Big Ben, etc.) but they also take more of a beating. (Sack-wise) The game, at nearly every other position on the field, is so much faster (powerful and athletic) that they can't possibly avoid the Dwight Freeney's and Julius Pepper's. Their hope is that they have the right play calling and protection, upfront.

Saying all of this leads me to this, the older QB's (Bledsoe) never pushed their, overall, athleticism to its' fullest potential, because they've never needed it. They always had a better arm, and most had the right system and protection upfront. And even if they wanted to truly work on their speed, in Bledsoe's case, you'd have a 36 yr-old (with bad knees) trying to enhance his speed work....all the while his vision and timing is fading. The same goes for Favre. He still feels he can bullet a pass into triple coverage and he hasn't figured out...he can't anymore.

Bledsoe's problems are a combination of things....mobility being 1 of them. But the athleticism has finally caught up with the Pocket Passer. Although I will say, it's a give and take. Vick, while a freak of an athlete, has used his feet just as much as he's used his arm, which is why he doesn't have the vision and ball placement of Bledsoe (in his prime). When Vick takes a few more hits and his speed slows he'll have much more of a problem playing the QB position, than the normal Pocket Passer - who is more equiped to see coverage, rather than avoid the rush.

Perfect example of the typical Posket Passer up-bringing:
Ryan Mallett at Texarkana High. 6'7 240 lbs...has a cannon (x's 2) for an arm. I promise you, they aren't teaching this kid agility, let alone helping him build speed. He'll be deemed a Pocket Passer, with no dual-threat mobility. He'll need a scheme that works for him (at Michigan) and great protection, upfront...or he'll take alot of sacks. (Especially if he makes it to the League.)

In todays NFL game...
There's just no way for a 25 yrs-old QB, of whom was never taught to be athletic or mobile, to learn to be quicker and faster than a defensive end, who has spent his last 15 yrs training to be an athletic monster (Jevon Kearse) - thus sprinting down QB's and feasting on them.

No....what Bledsoe (aka Matt Leinart in 10 yrs) needs is a scheme that fits his non-athletic frame and, for the love of God, an OFFENSIVE LINE that blocks.


Saw him do it against Miami...so I'll assume you mean at the rate he used to do it...:)


Speaking of the Miami game...you are right on with Dalas' O-line IMO...
Green Bay came into the with Clifton ill...
Colledge moved to his spot at LT...
Spitz moved to LG...
and Moll came off the beach at RG...
Dare I say, even though it was only Miami...
GB O-Line looked good...with three rookies...
Compared to what the Dallas O-line has been doing to (for) Bledsoe...

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Saw him do it against Miami...so I'll assume you mean at the rate he used to do it...:)


Speaking of the Miami game...you are right on with Dalas' O-line IMO...
Green Bay came into the with Clifton ill...
Colledge moved to his spot at LT...
Spitz moved to LG...
and Moll came off the beach at RG...
Dare I say, even though it was only Miami...
GB O-Line looked good...with three rookies...
Compared to what the Dallas O-line has been doing to (for) Bledsoe...

Key words being..."against Miami". Favre needs to retire. For several different reasons....not just his ability to contribute.

[svhorns]

Classic case of surroundings. Sacks were common with Bledsoe, because he physically was unable to evade the defender. This due in part, largely, to the fact that the Offensive Line couldn't even do a decent job of blocking, thus giving Bledsoe very little - to no - time in the pocket. However, one could say he definitely held onto the football longer than he should've, on several occassions....and on other occassions he made very poor decisions. Ints could become common, as it seems - a young Rookie'ish - Romo is amped up and ready to make plays happen....thus the reason for forcing 2 ints, Monday night. He's fresh and even though he's been on an NFL team for 3 or 4 yrs, he will have to figure out that Regular-Season speed doesn't equal Pre-Season speed, and the overall quality of play is higher. He may force more passes, but only as the result of pressure, due mainly to the lack of blocking taking place on the Offensive Line, combined with intimidating factors. (I.E...Parcells, J. Jones, Fans...and the fact that the Cowboys are poised to make a Super Bowl run.)

In part, it all leads back to the Offensive Line giving the QB plenty of time to look - then fire - down field, or pull the ball down and scramble.

This is cause and effect, much like any other QB situation in the NFL.

If you were to rate Romo's/Bledsoe's surroundings, I think it would be:

RB's = B+
OL = C-
WR's = A
TE's = B+

Just imagine if the OL was a B or even a B+.;)
good post... I didnt think the OL was going to be a problem this year but it appears to me were starting to look the Texans... Hell.. the Texans beat the Jaguars!! pretty handily too...

[ThEgReAtOnE]

good post... I didnt think the OL was going to be a problem this year but it appears to me were starting to look the Texans... Hell.. the Texans beat the Jaguars!! pretty handily too...

Ya...but the Jaguars looked like a shell of themselves, against Houston, than from Week 1. Horrid! And Houston played to its' highest ability, so far this season. That combination could spell a 28-7 embarrassing loss for even the Colts.

Dallas isn't looking like the Texans, and wont. Too much talent and a far better defense. Put it like this....if the Cowboys sure up their O-line issues and Romo does what we all think he can, Dallas could very easily win 8 of their next 10 games...if not all 10. (Yes, they can be THAT good!)

Until Houston gets better players, that will utilize Kubiaks schemes to its' highest potential, they'll have to rely on teams playing down to them, or far worse, in order to defeat them.

[SVite]

Why can't the immobile, "pocket passer" type QB's such as Drew Bledsoe just get with a speed coach to add speed and elusiveness? To me, there is no excuse for this. How many other athletes have overcome any physical shortcomings? Even if he is a "pocket passer," he is going to get chased at some point; and the extra training will pay off even if it gets one extra touchdown. I know that if I had 300 pound linemen wanting to do me harm, I would do whatever it takes to mitigate this.
What kind of physical regimen do QBs use to train? It seems that most of them have physical ability of a kicker or punter or golfer. Sure, it is a skill position; but what about skill plus physical ability? For the money these guys make, and their leadership responsibility; they should be taking the lead, and earning their pay.

We all know the NFL is so fast, that losing a half a step just for the age factor, could mean retirement.

Reggie Bush could`nt believe the speed of the defenses in the NFL compared college. He still is`nt doing that great as a rusher. Right now he`s earning his pay check as a recieving RB/returner in the NFL.

[toddg]

Why can't the immobile, "pocket passer" type QB's such as Drew Bledsoe just get with a speed coach to add speed and elusiveness? To me, there is no excuse for this. How many other athletes have overcome any physical shortcomings? Even if he is a "pocket passer," he is going to get chased at some point; and the extra training will pay off even if it gets one extra touchdown. I know that if I had 300 pound linemen wanting to do me harm, I would do whatever it takes to mitigate this.
What kind of physical regimen do QBs use to train? It seems that most of them have physical ability of a kicker or punter or golfer. Sure, it is a skill position; but what about skill plus physical ability? For the money these guys make, and their leadership responsibility; they should be taking the lead, and earning their pay.

the ball was dropped on bledsoe when the cowboys didnt go after the primo O linemen that were available in free agency, instead picked up low priced journymen. andthey need to teach the RBs how to pick up a blitz!

[pack0808]

99.9 % of super bowls have been won by pocket passers. The key is not being a complete statue and being some what elusive. You definitely do not have to be fast and it has been proven over and over and over again in the NFL.

[mad_fan]

Key words being..."against Miami". Favre needs to retire. For several different reasons....not just his ability to contribute.


...and this week against lowly red pigeons...
...one more TD pass...
...and one on the ground...
...the old man is StIlLgReAt...;) ...

[ThEgReAtOnE]

99.9 % of super bowls have been won by pocket passers. The key is not being a complete statue and being some what elusive. You definitely do not have to be fast and it has been proven over and over and over again in the NFL.

99.9% of the Super Bowls have been won by a combination of things...teams with out-of-this-world defenses, outstanding (or above average) offensive lines that could protect those "great pocket passers", superb (or good) rush attacks that helped balance their respective offenses or good (or above average) defenses with playmaker-packed offenses. (I.E...Dallas Cowboys 92/93)

And the fact that QB's, back in the day, didn't have to have much athleticism, doesn't speak much for todays football. Today, nearly every position on the field is stacked - in depth - with superb speed, agility and power. The game is faster than it has ever been, so there is more of a focus on strength coaches and/or football athletes, themselves, to key speed and footwork...especially in the case of QB's. (All of the better QB's train for speed and footwork, including the ones you don't think do. I've trained with them.)

Mobility is becoming more of an incentative in the game, at the QB position. It is evident. If a QB doesn't have that sort of mobility or evading capability, he needs to be surrounded by the perfect supporting cast...a good - if not above average - offensive line, a good - if not above average - rush attack and a scheme that fits his character, i.e..shotgun, comfortability with receiving targets/WR's/TE's etc.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

...and this week against lowly red pigeons...
...one more TD pass...
...and one on the ground...
...the old man is StIlLgReAt...;) ...

Favre passed for 180 yds and 1 td. The key to the victory, for GB, was the fact that 2 of their RB's rushed for a combined 206 yds and 2 tds, and the defense had 4 sacks and 1 int.

Favre isn't as gReAt as he once was, he's just being supported - for the first time in a long time - by his team. He's not doing anything to lose the game, for GB. If you notice, every week his defense steps up...and the rushing usually nets over 100 yds...if not much more.

And lets not forget...the "Frozen Cheese" has only beaten Detroit (1-6), Miami (1-6) and Arizona (1-7)....nuff said, bro!;) :D

When they beat New England or Seattle or Chicago, I'll acknowledge them.

[pack0808]

99.9% of the Super Bowls have been won by a combination of things...teams with out-of-this-world defenses, outstanding (or above average) offensive lines that could protect those "great pocket passers", superb (or good) rush attacks that helped balance their respective offenses or good (or above average) defenses with playmaker-packed offenses. (I.E...Dallas Cowboys 92/93)

And the fact that QB's, back in the day, didn't have to have much athleticism, doesn't speak much for todays football. Today, nearly every position on the field is stacked - in depth - with superb speed, agility and power. The game is faster than it has ever been, so there is more of a focus on strength coaches and/or football athletes, themselves, to key speed and footwork...especially in the case of QB's. (All of the better QB's train for speed and footwork, including the ones you don't think do. I've trained with them.)


Mobility is becoming more of an incentative in the game, at the QB position. It is evident. If a QB doesn't have that sort of mobility or evading capability, he needs to be surrounded by the perfect supporting cast...a good - if not above average - offensive line, a good - if not above average - rush attack and a scheme that fits his character, i.e..shotgun, comfortability with receiving targets/WR's/TE's etc.




Again, 99.9% of the super bowls have been won by a pocket passing starter Mr. K Mitchell's cousin or huge fan. ;) That is including today's football. Ben R last year and Brady before! same old thing in the so called today's football. Manning,Brady, and Rothlesberger are the 3 of the best qb's in today's NFL and they are both fairly immobile and are "pocket passers"

They are elusive but far from mobile. The facts do not lie.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Again, 99.9% of the super bowls have been won by a pocket passing starter Mr. K Mitchell's cousin or huge fan. ;) That is including today's football. Ben R last year and Brady before! same old thing in the so called today's football. Manning,Brady, and Rothlesberger are the 3 of the best qb's in today's NFL and they are both fairly immobile and are "pocket passers"

They are elusive but far from mobile. The facts do not lie.

But all 3 are have good - if not better than average - offensive lines, and are comfortable with their WR's/Play Scheme.

Big Ben, last year! (Comfortable with WR's.)
RB's = B+
O-Line = B
Defense = A

Manning, this year! (Masterful of scheme. Comfortable with WR's.)
RB's = B-
O-Line = B+
Defense = B-

Brady, winning all 3 SB's! (Very comfortable with WR's/Scheme.)
RB's = B
O-Line = B+
Defense = B+

Point being? They have/had the supporting cast to be able to be "great (or good) pocket passers". It's a trend!;)

Now, look at the production Vick has had over the last 2 weeks (7 pass tds), and consider this...

Vick
RB's = B-
O-Line = C (< He has the mobility/athleticism to make plays happen, even with a below average O-Line.)
Defense = B

[pack0808]

But all 3 are have good - if not better than average - offensive lines, and are comfortable with their WR's/Play Scheme.

Big Ben, last year! (Comfortable with WR's.)
RB's = B+
O-Line = B
Defense = A

Manning, this year! (Masterful of scheme. Comfortable with WR's.)
RB's = B-
O-Line = B+
Defense = B-

Brady, winning all 3 SB's! (Very comfortable with WR's/Scheme.)
RB's = B
O-Line = B+
Defense = B+

Point being? They have/had the supporting cast to be able to be "great (or good) pocket passers". It's a trend!;)

Now, look at the production Vick has had over the last 2 weeks (7 pass tds), and consider this...

Vick
RB's = B-
O-Line = C (< He has the mobility/athleticism to make plays happen, even with a below average O-Line.)
Defense = B


In denial! Again, 99.9% of the sb champs have been lead by a qb that was a pocket passer. Then why has the so called mobile qb not won in the history of the NFL. The only one I can think of is Young and he still was more of a pocket passer. Heck the steelers game last week was the first time in Vick's career where he had 3 td's or more. Even he realizes that trying to mr mobile in the NFL does not work. You will get injured by NFL hits and the speed is too much in the NFL for that type of qb.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

In denial! Again, 99.9% of the sb champs have been lead by a qb that was a pocket passer. Then why has the so called mobile qb not won in the history of the NFL. The only one I can think of is Young and he still was more of a pocket passer. Heck the steelers game last week was the first time in Vick's career where he had 3 td's or more. Even he realizes that trying to mr mobile in the NFL does not work. You will get injured by NFL hits and the speed is too much in the NFL for that type of qb.

Having recently played in the NFL, I can vouch for the fact that the game is becoming more athletically dominated than ever. Meaning speed, athleticism and power vs technique. Is the technical aspects still there? Definitely. (< Offensive Line) However, is the dawn of the more-athletic playmaker exploding? Absolutely! (Freeney, Peppers, Urlacher, Kearse etc.)

I'm not saying pocket passers haven't won, in years past. I'm saying 99.9% of the SB winning pocket passers have had the perfect supporting cast....I.E...SUPERB (IF NOT ADEQUATE )OFFENSIVE LINE PROTECTION...GOOD (IF NOT GREAT) WR"S...and the SB winning QB's themselves were most likely HOF's. (Brady, Young, Aikman, Elway, Favre, Bradshaw, etc. / with offensive schemes to fit their football character.) That is unless you take Super Bowl teams that were led MAINLY LED BY THEIR DEFENSE....Baltimore Ravens (2001), Tampa Bay Buccaneers (2003), Chicago Bears (80's), New York Giants (80's), Raiders (80's) and many more.

Mobility is becoming more of an incentative. Key word being "IS". Take Tom Brady (out of New England) and give him the supporting cast of the Houston Texans - over the last 5 yrs. Does Brady win a Super Bowl, just because he's a good (if not great) pocket passer? No. Why? Because he doesn't have the supporting cast, that he has/had with the Patriots.

Speed and footwork training is something that many NFL teams are focusing on, in the off-season, especially with QB's. At least that's what some NFL QB's have told me.;)

[pack0808]

Having recently played in the NFL, I can vouch for the fact that the game is becoming more athletically dominated than ever. Meaning speed, athleticism and power vs technique. Is the technical aspects still there? Definitely. (< Offensive Line) However, is the dawn of the more-athletic playmaker exploding? Absolutely! (Freeney, Peppers, Urlacher, Kearse etc.)

I'm not saying pocket passers haven't won, in years past. I'm saying 99.9% of the SB winning pocket passers have had the perfect supporting cast....I.E...SUPERB (IF NOT ADEQUATE )OFFENSIVE LINE PROTECTION...GOOD (IF NOT GREAT) WR"S...and the SB winning QB's themselves were most likely HOF's. (Brady, Young, Aikman, Elway, Favre, Bradshaw, etc. / with offensive schemes to fit their football character.) That is unless you take Super Bowl teams that were led MAINLY LED BY THEIR DEFENSE....Baltimore Ravens (2001), Tampa Bay Buccaneers (2003), Chicago Bears (80's), New York Giants (80's), Raiders (80's) and many more.

Mobility is becoming more of an incentative. Key word being "IS". Take Tom Brady (out of New England) and give him the supporting cast of the Houston Texans - over the last 5 yrs. Does Brady win a Super Bowl, just because he's a good (if not great) pocket passer? No. Why? Because he doesn't have the supporting cast, that he has/had with the Patriots.

Speed and footwork training is something that many NFL teams are focusing on, in the off-season, especially with QB's. At least that's what some NFL QB's have told me.;)

So you just ignore the obvious and say it is all because of their supporting cast? I mean come on? Of course you have to have a great "team" to win a SB? A pocket passer has proven to be 100 times more effective in the NFL and that is still true to this day.

I am well aware that you claim to have played in the NFL considering you told us about 1 million times. ;) I still do not understand why you cheer for OU when supposedly you went to A&M and you never even mention south garland? Not saying you are not who you say you are but I have to admit that it does not add up? You are a very intelligent football poster who I enjoy discussing sports with I will give you that. Again, in case if you did not hear me. ;) all the super bowl champions qbs have been pocket passers and not one has been a real athletic type that relies on his feet more then his pocket passing abilities. Steve Young is the only one that I can think of that was real athletic and even he was more of a pocket passer. The qb in the NFL is about timing, reading the defense, going through your reads quickly, being elusive, and getting rid of the ball quick. It is not about taking off and running like some college qb in the option. Even Vick is learning that. He figured out that he could not stay healthy playing the other way. NFL D's are too fast and hit too hard for those types to be successful.

[BeauxGeezy]

Roger Staubach?? He wasn't a pocket passer. Of course that was 30 years ago.
I agree with Pack08 though...
The mobile run first,throw second QB doesn't have a chance in hell. Vick is slowly changing his ways. And this will add years to his career.
YOU CANNOT RUN WITH THE PROS....you will get killed dude. That works in college where 3/4 of the guys are slower than you. Not in the NFL...everybody is freakin' fast.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

So you just ignore the obvious and say it is all because of their supporting cast? I mean come on? Of course you have to have a great "team" to win a SB? A pocket passer has proven to be 100 times more effective in the NFL and that is still true to this day.

I am well aware that you claim to have played in the NFL considering you told us about 1 million times. ;) I still do not understand why you cheer for OU when supposedly you went to A&M and you never even mention south garland? Not saying you are not who you say you are but I have to admit that it does not add up? You are a very intelligent football poster who I enjoy discussing sports with I will give you that. Again, in case if you did not hear me. ;) all the super bowl champions qbs have been pocket passers and not one has been a real athletic type that relies on his feet more then his pocket passing abilities. Steve Young is the only one that I can think of that was real athletic and even he was more of a pocket passer. The qb in the NFL is about timing, reading the defense, going through your reads quickly, being elusive, and getting rid of the ball quick. It is not about taking off and running like some college qb in the option. Even Vick is learning that. He figured out that he could not stay healthy playing the other way. NFL D's are too fast and hit too hard for those types to be successful.

You just made my point. Find me a non-mobile QB, that didn't have a good (if not great) O-line and/or good (if not great) WR's and/or a good (if not great) defenses and/or didn't have a good (if not great) sense of scheme terminology or technique....and still won a SB? Just being a "Pocket Passer" doesn't ensure that your team will win a SB.

You said "99.9% of the Super Bowls that HAVE been won, was won by pocket passers". I said "Yes, but they had the perfect supporting cast!"...meaning they had a good (if not great) O-line and/or good (if not great) WR's and/or a good (if not great) defense and/or good (if not great) sense of scheme terminology or technique.

That's why the NFL is focusing more on speed and footwork - than in years past - in the off-seasons. It's a different day, bro. I'm not saying a "Vick" type QB will be more effecient, I'm saying the day of having all day to make the perfect strike is over, because the defensive scheme terminology is different and the speed, power and size of the game is advancing. And yes, mobility is helping more QB's - who don't have good (if not great) offensive lines and/or WR's - today. Ask yourself, what would Michael Vick do with a Dallas Cowboy team that has a good defense, average offensive line, good/productive run game and great receiving targets, as opposed to what a non-mobile Pocket Passer, in Bledsoe, would do with an Atlanta Falcon team - that has a below average offensive line, average receivers, average rushers and average defense? At least with the Cowboys he had an above average supporting cast.

To say "99.9% of the SB's won had non-mobile Pocket Passers" is only a fraction of the reason they won a SB. And in the future, that number will decline, unless offensive line production (and a number of other variables) increases.

A few reasons why SB's are won, today...

1) Scheme Terminology - Playbooks are 2 and 3 times the size of playbooks 10 or 20 yrs (let alone 30 or 40 yrs) ago - defensively and offensively.

2) Offensive Line Production - Interior defensive linemen are getting much bigger, still explosive and much more powerful (575 bench avg.) D-Ends are becoming freaks. (4.6-4.75 avg. 40 yd dashes @ 6'4 or 6'6 270 lbs avg.) It's much harder to block these guys. You have to equalize them with double-downs (TE/RB bumps or seals) and max protect/isolation blocking. And it's just not happening as much as it should. It's harder than most would imagine.

3) Comfortability with receiving targets. Free Agency has creatd a frenzy of shuffling players. It's harder to rely on a QB and WR, staying together for 5 to 7 yrs, like in years past. Loyalty walks, money talks!

4) Run equalizer. The RB doesn't have be the best in the league. He just has to help balance the offense, with good (if not great) production. Today, it's harder than ever.

5) Defenses. Today, speed kills. Defenses with speedy, attacking and smart defense are key to helping the offense have more opportunities to score. Can be the main force of a team. Example...Chicago vs Arizona. (2 weeks ago...the defense score all of the pts, in order to beat Arizona, yet Grossman is considered a stand-in-the-pocket QB. Supporting cast!)

6) Level of competition. Strength on strength.

Main reasons being...keeping a good (potentially great) team together. Unity. Understanding of Team/Family. Trust.;)

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Roger Staubach?? He wasn't a pocket passer. Of course that was 30 years ago.
I agree with Pack08 though...
The mobile run first,throw second QB doesn't have a chance in hell. Vick is slowly changing his ways. And this will add years to his career.
YOU CANNOT RUN WITH THE PROS....you will get killed dude. That works in college where 3/4 of the guys are slower than you. Not in the NFL...everybody is freakin' fast.

I've never said a run-first QB was better, I just said "SB winning pocket passing QB's usually had the perfect supporting cast!" It's true, bro! ;)

And in regards to Vick, he is advancing further into becoming a very good (potentially great) passer. If he does, he'll have an edge that very few non-mobile QB's have...in superb speed and agility! Now THAT is scary!:eek:

[pack0808]

You just made my point. Find me a non-mobile QB, that didn't have a good (if not great) O-line and/or good (if not great) WR's and/or a good (if not great) defenses and/or didn't have a good (if not great) sense of scheme terminology or technique....and still won a SB? Just being a "Pocket Passer" doesn't ensure that your team will win a SB.

You said "99.9% of the Super Bowls that HAVE been won, was won by pocket passers". I said "Yes, but they had the perfect supporting cast!"...meaning they had a good (if not great) O-line and/or good (if not great) WR's and/or a good (if not great) defense and/or good (if not great) sense of scheme terminology or technique.

That's why the NFL is focusing more on speed and footwork - than in years past - in the off-seasons. It's a different day, bro. I'm not saying a "Vick" type QB will be more effecient, I'm saying the day of having all day to make the perfect strike is over, because the defensive scheme terminology is different and the speed, power and size of the game is advancing. And yes, mobility is helping more QB's - who don't have good (if not great) offensive lines and/or WR's - today. Ask yourself, what would Michael Vick do with a Dallas Cowboy team that has a good defense, average offensive line, good/productive run game and great receiving targets, as opposed to what a non-mobile Pocket Passer, in Bledsoe, would do with an Atlanta Falcon team - that has a below average offensive line, average receivers, average rushers and average defense? At least with the Cowboys he had an above average supporting cast.

To say "99.9% of the SB's won had non-mobile Pocket Passers" is only a fraction of the reason they won a SB. And in the future, that number will decline, unless offensive line production (and a number of other variables) increases.

A few reasons why SB's are won, today...

1) Scheme Terminology - Playbooks are 2 and 3 times the size of playbooks 10 or 20 yrs (let alone 30 or 40 yrs) ago - defensively and offensively.

2) Offensive Line Production - Interior defensive linemen are getting much bigger, still explosive and much more powerful (575 bench avg.) D-Ends are becoming freaks. (4.6-4.75 avg. 40 yd dashes @ 6'4 or 6'6 270 lbs avg.) It's much harder to block these guys. You have to equalize them with double-downs (TE/RB bumps or seals) and max protect/isolation blocking. And it's just not happening as much as it should. It's harder than most would imagine.

3) Comfortability with receiving targets. Free Agency has creatd a frenzy of shuffling players. It's harder to rely on a QB and WR, staying together for 5 to 7 yrs, like in years past. Loyalty walks, money talks!

4) Run equalizer. The RB doesn't have be the best in the league. He just has to help balance the offense, with good (if not great) production. Today, it's harder than ever.

5) Defenses. Today, speed kills. Defenses with speedy, attacking and smart defense are key to helping the offense have more opportunities to score. Can be the main force of a team. Example...Chicago vs Arizona. (2 weeks ago...the defense score all of the pts, in order to beat Arizona, yet Grossman is considered a stand-in-the-pocket QB. Supporting cast!)

6) Level of competition. Strength on strength.

Main reasons being...keeping a good (potentially great) team together. Unity. Understanding of Team/Family. Trust.;)


Yes there are many factors of winning a super bowl and having a pocket passer is a very key ingredient and the fact's agree with me.

[pack0808]

Roger Staubach?? He wasn't a pocket passer. Of course that was 30 years ago.
I agree with Pack08 though...
The mobile run first,throw second QB doesn't have a chance in hell. Vick is slowly changing his ways. And this will add years to his career.
YOU CANNOT RUN WITH THE PROS....you will get killed dude. That works in college where 3/4 of the guys are slower than you. Not in the NFL...everybody is freakin' fast.

Yeah I was going to mention him but decided not to. He still threw a lot more in the pocket then he ran. He was a great scrambler and could make plays out of nothing. When he scrambled it was usually to avoid defenders to throw not to run 30 yards down the field.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Yes there are many factors of winning a super bowl and having a pocket passer is a very key ingredient and the fact's agree with me.

Only in your mind.;) Obviously, you're not getting the point.

So...

Lets agree to disagree.

I'm going to believe what I'm saying is fact and vice versa on your part. And I'm certainly not budging. So lets move on.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Yeah I was going to mention him but decided not to. He still threw a lot more in the pocket then he ran. He was a great scrambler and could make plays out of nothing. When he scrambled it was usually to avoid defenders to throw not to run 30 yards down the field.

In the 1970's.;)

[pack0808]

Only in your mind.;) Obviously, you're not getting the point.

So...

Lets agree to disagree.

I'm going to believe what I'm saying is fact and vice versa on your part. And I'm certainly not budging. So lets move on.


Only in my mind and what the "actual" facts on the field say. ;) The qb is the most important player on the field and is the leader of the offense and without a good qb (with the exception of Baltimore a few years back) you will not win a SB. I guess it has just been just coinsidence that 99% of all sb champs have been pocket passers. ;) Look at the 00's same exact thing. Brady, Rothlesberger, Warner etc etc When the type of qb you are describing actually wins a sb then maybe you will have an argument. I am not budging either so you are right lets just agree to disagree.

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Only in my mind and what the "actual" facts on the field say. ;) The qb is the most important player on the field and is the leader of the offense and without a good qb (with the exception of Baltimore a few years back) you will not win a SB. I guess it has just been just coinsidence that 99% of all sb champs have been pocket passers. ;) Look at the 00's same exact thing. Brady, Rothlesberger, Warner etc etc When the type of qb you are describing actually wins a sb then maybe you will have an argument. I am not budging either so you are right lets just agree to disagree.

I've never said the QB's of the 99.9% of the SB champs weren't "pocket passers"...I said, "THEY HAD THE PERFECT SUPPORTING CAST!"

You're not getting what I'm saying, so you're right we have no argument. You simply have your opinion, and I have mine. And I've already said, "No one will make me budge. Period!"

So...

Agree to disagree.;)

[pack0808]

I've never said the QB's of the 99.9% of the SB champs weren't "pocket passers"...I said, "THEY HAD THE PERFECT SUPPORTING CAST!"

You're not getting what I'm saying, so you're right we have no argument. You simply have your opinion, and I have mine. And I've already said, "No one will make me budge. Period!"

So...

Agree to disagree.;)


Yeah and you are basically down playing the qb's MAJOR part and impact in the scenario of a sb team IMO. It takes a great "team" to win a sb and that includes having a good pocket passing qb 99.9 % of the time. Oh well let's move on :eek: ;)

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Yeah and you are basically down playing the qb's MAJOR part and impact in the scenario of a sb team IMO. It takes a great "team" to win a sb and that includes having a good pocket passing qb 99.9 % of the time. Oh well let's move on :eek: ;)

Not down playing. Just emphasizing.

Great team = My point, this entire time. Just having a good pocket passer doesn't equal a SB win.

Team sport.;)

Yap...lets move on.

[pack0808]

Not down playing. Just emphasizing.

Great team = My point, this entire time. Just having a good pocket passer doesn't equal a SB win.

Team sport.;)

Yap...lets move on.


Haha! I will hold my tongue or should I say hold my fingers?

[ThEgReAtOnE]

Haha! I will hold my tongue or should I say hold my fingers?

Ditto!