Is FOOTBALL This Important in Texas?

[Drake]

The link below forwards to an interesting article about the state of education in Texas... Its a good article for this forum because the author's primary premise is that Texas High School Football, and specifically schools that prioritize winning above all else, are partly to blame for Texas' poor academic results and near bottom rankings nationally...

http://www.texasmonthly.com/2006-02-01/hart.php

I don't necessarily agree with the author, but it's an interesting read...

[drgnbkr]

I'm sure it's relavent in some cases, but the impact most coaches have, and the standards they require, means acceptable scholastic performance. At Carroll, 95% of the kids go on to college. A very, very low number fail to graduate from High School.

[Sakatha]

Their #'s seem wrong...

Why wasn't Allen or the Plano squads listed?

~DnM

[ScottS]

The writer never metions SLC. Maybe because it would shoot holes in her theme. Personally I think most journalist type people are retards. They seem to find something they don't like, in this case football, and link it to all of societies issues. They ignore other variables that could cause those issues (such as parential involvement in this case) and cherry pick things that support their argument.

[CoveMom]

I can see their point. But, in the majority of cases, I believe it is the desire to save money, not just the band, football, sports programs, that leads to larger and larger schools. Too often, ISD's look at schools as merely pass-throughs to college and forget that a lot of kids are not going no matter who knows their name. Many need to be prepared for Tech Schools, etc. They are just not getting that as well as in the past because we (as a nation) bought into the notion that not only CAN all kids go on to 4 year universities, but that they SHOULD go to them. And then we decided that they MUST do so. Imo this leads to the dropout kids feeling like second class citizens when they are not in the Pre-AP programs at an early age. Gifted and Talented programs beginning in first grade start them off feeling inferior very early.

We pulled out son out of all Pre-AP classes this year except Biology. That is his natural talent area. He probably won't take the AP exam in that either. Our family decided that it would be soon enough for college AFTER graduation from High School. So far, it has been a good decision. Too many resources are being put into the AP mill and redirected from the regular classes. When some school districts loosen the standards for getting into them, you must acknowledge that the numbers they post about how many kids are in Pre-AP or AP classes matter more to some administrators than the actual pass rates on the AP exams. Even the Newsweek article listing the "best" high schools admitted that they did not consider pass rates. hmmmm?

Sorry about the rant. Please forgive. I am just a Mother who herself was a product of Honors Classes, National Honor Society, etc. Guess what I did when I graduated (with Honors) from Tyler Lee in 1977? Being sick of the pressure to perform, I joined the Army. Best decision I ever made.

Thanks for listening.

[Drake]

The biggest problem I have with the article is the underlying notion that teachers are responsible for mentoring and encouraging students as well as watching for signs that they've gone astray. If they do, then great... But what about the parents?

A kid can learn as much or as little as they want whether the class has an enrollment of 10 or 50. It all depends on the student's reason for being there and what the expectations are from home.

[SeguinMatadors]

I am pretty sure I could give you a lot of other reasons that do not involve football that are the reason for our poor scores on standardized testing.

[svhorns]

hell... I didnt play football but I played baseball... its the only reason I went to school! So I figured I would go to class to play baseball.... and learn every now and then....

[78 Spartan]

Oh, please!!

Texas Monthly's political agenda is about as leftist as the New York Times. True, they live in Texas, but remember they live in "Berkeley on the Colorado".

Of course there are excesses. I believe in the book Friday Night Lights (does anybody remember the book?), Buzz Bissinger wrote about how the Ector County schools spent more money one year on athletic tape than they did on English textbooks. That stuff shouldn't happen.

But to suggest that football is a big factor in why Texas ranks low on certain academic achievement scales is a silly argument. What we do in football is a GOOD thing and it certainly creates an incentive for a lot of marginal students to stay in school.... not to mention with No Pass No Play, all participants in extra-curriculars have to hit the books or they will pay the price.

[zippy]

I am pretty sure I could give you a lot of other reasons that do not involve football that are the reason for our poor scores on standardized testing.


If football/sports does anything it helps. The fact is, Texas is never going to score high on these tests. When close to have of the population in over half of these schools do not even know how to speak english, its hard. This is not a shot at these kids, its a fact. Kind of hard to pass a test you can't even read/understand. Until there is a better system placed in our school to help these kids learn english, test scores are going to be down. Dropout rate is going to be high. That is just cold hard facts. If football/sports does anything, it keeps the kids motivated to learn. No pass No play.

[Sakatha]

hell... I didnt play football but I played baseball... its the only reason I went to school! So I figured I would go to class to play baseball.... and learn every now and then....

If I ever heard my kid say that, he'd never pick up a baseball again as long as he lived in my house.

~DnM

[stevefoxsc]

The writer never metions SLC. Maybe because it would shoot holes in her theme. Personally I think most journalist type people are retards. They seem to find something they don't like, in this case football, and link it to all of societies issues. They ignore other variables that could cause those issues (such as parential involvement in this case) and cherry pick things that support their argument.


She wanted to manipulate it as much as possible if she put mentions of schools like jesuit and slc where academics are high that would defeat the purpose of that article would it now?

[sgfantoo]

"if they are to perform their mission of educating every student."

The above quote comunicates the philosophical basis for this article. Every student can learn but that does not mean that every student can learn everything.

There are some good solutions mentioned: schools within a school. I gues another solution is for state and local governments set drastic limits on population densities sending everyone back to the country were their fore fathers and mothers lived prior to WW2.

Another factor intrigues me. I have gray hair and on the down side of life. A baby boomer of the fifties. In my memory, the public education system has always been in a shambles. I find it intereting that so many from other countries want to bring their children to the USA for such a terrible education.

Football and sports the problem. Nay!

[texan_75010]

I moved to Texas from Louisiana....a place where football is not as important as it is here. So that must mean the schools are better in Louisiana, right? :p

Ummmmm not so much.

[SeguinMatadors]

If football/sports does anything it helps. The fact is, Texas is never going to score high on these tests. When close to have of the population in over half of these schools do not even know how to speak english, its hard. This is not a shot at these kids, its a fact. Kind of hard to pass a test you can't even read/understand. Until there is a better system placed in our school to help these kids learn english, test scores are going to be down. Dropout rate is going to be high. That is just cold hard facts. If football/sports does anything, it keeps the kids motivated to learn. No pass No play.

That is exactly one of my points. I am willing to bet that California and New Mexico have similar struggles.

[DragonBand06]

In response to the title: Yes.

[DrEdward]

To say that this article is a biased piece of journalistic nonsense is an understatement. There is indeed some evidence that shows smaller high schools provide more favorable results than do large high schools. However, there are important caveats that go along with that body of research. The most important is the observation that the statement may well not be true for areas where the families are relatively higher income. The overwhelming amount of research on the topic of school size and academic performance has been focused on inner city schools and areas with other significant social issues, uch as Indian reservations, as an example. When I investigated this topic for the Carroll two high school debate, the empirical findings with respect to smaller schools was not at all evident. In fact, the data showed that Carroll's academic performance had improved with increases in the size of the school. If anyone would like a copy of the study, just let me know, as I think I still have a copy of it around here somewhere in PDF-format. It also includes a more comprehensive review of the litereature, as it existed back in 2000. Certainly there is a limit to school size, but the socio-demographic characteristics of the community matter, not necessarily football.

[RocklandDragon]

Isn't the main problem that there isn't enough teachers in proportion with the students?

The area's that are growing (i.e. Cypress-Fairbanks, Round Rock) are not due to people just wanting to be in a great football program. It's where jobs are and where good schools are at.

To me, a large school can be as great as a smaller learing environment if there is enough room to hold the students, there is enough qualified teachers at the schools (how about 16 students to 1 teacher), expand the options that schools have (a more variety of courses that specify what a high school student excels at and lead them to a path of success). Set the school up like a small college. I wouldn't mind Lubbock High having an enrollment of 3,000 if we could obtain more land and funds to expand the school and allow more kids to take advantage of the LEAP program and expand the cirriculum.

Why do they blame football for all of Texas' education problems. Estacado High in Lubbock has been academically unacceptable for a while (they had an acceptable year last year) but the football team isn't doing well. They just broke a 33-game losing streak. It goes far deeper than blaming extracirricular activites. If people who detest sports or try to blame sports for bad education, imagine a place where there was no sports. What would kids have to do then? Kids need a refuge from just learing all the time. Otherwise, bad influences could seep in a lot further than without the participation of sports.

:eek:

I would like to research more how Cypress-Fairbanks, Plano and Round Rock ISD education system works. Southlake has a Senior High campus and a campus for freshmen and sophmores right? Helps overcrowding to have two separate campuses.

:cool:

[CoveMom]

To say that this article is a biased piece of journalistic nonsense is an understatement. There is indeed some evidence that shows smaller high schools provide more favorable results than do large high schools. However, there are important caveats that go along with that body of research. The most important is the observation that the statement may well not be true for areas where the families are relatively higher income. The overwhelming amount of research on the topic of school size and academic performance has been focused on inner city schools and areas with other significant social issues, uch as Indian reservations, as an example. When I investigated this topic for the Carroll two high school debate, the empirical findings with respect to smaller schools was not at all evident. In fact, the data showed that Carroll's academic performance had improved with increases in the size of the school. If anyone would like a copy of the study, just let me know, as I think I still have a copy of it around here somewhere in PDF-format. It also includes a more comprehensive review of the litereature, as it existed back in 2000. Certainly there is a limit to school size, but the socio-demographic characteristics of the community matter, not necessarily football.

Amen to all that. I am back on my meds now :) and realize that I went off on the proverbial tangent. Still meant all I said, but forgot to add that FOOTBALL is what kept our son in school. He was being assaulted (yes, the police were involved) in regular PE. Football gave him a sense of team and accomplishment that no amount of "knowing the classroom teacher" ever could.

I don't think all schools need to be 300 or less either. Cove seems to be pretty good at its 1900+-. Perhaps the smaller is better approach would help in the inner cities and in poor rural areas. Help with academics only. That team thing, though, that is immeasurable.

[DragonWatcher]

I personally think one of the biggest problems is that now most teachers are forced to teach solely for a test, namely Taks and not help the kids learn in a manner that will benefit them throughout life. That test is completely useless the second after you pass it.

On the note about AP classes I benefited immensly from it. Not only did they prepare me for the level of work and reading in many college courses but I entered college with 27 hours of credit which is allowing me to double major now.

[svhorns]

If I ever heard my kid say that, he'd never pick up a baseball again as long as he lived in my house.

~DnM
Im sorry you feel that way... but most kids think that way... but they wont tell their parents that... What kid enjoys going to school.... I can honestly say if it wasnt for sports I wouldnt be who I was today... I went to school and got a good education but It if it wasnt for baseball... I dont know...

[owlbandad]

In the end, Ms. Hart undoes her premise by noting that the important consideration is not actually the size of the student body at large. What is important is that the average student be included in a group in which he or she can be recognized as an individual, both by other students, and by faculty. In other words, everyone needs to belong, and it's worth expending some extra effort to make it happen.

The irony here is, if you ask any reasonably intelligent football coach why so many average students don't succeed, he might very well say, "The average kid in this school doesn't feel like he belongs. Nobody knows who he is, nobody cares how he's doing, and absolutely nobody thinks he's a valuable part of anything. If I treated my boys like that we wouldn't win a game. Hell, we wouldn't make a first down all season."

But nobody's going to ask coach. He's not a real educator.

owlbandad

[whyzat]

The biggest problem I have with the article is the underlying notion that teachers are responsible for mentoring and encouraging students as well as watching for signs that they've gone astray. If they do, then great... But what about the parents?

A kid can learn as much or as little as they want whether the class has an enrollment of 10 or 50. It all depends on the student's reason for being there and what the expectations are from home.
Greetings Drake...and kudos on the offhand introduction of an extremely high quality source of discomfort for those basking in the status quo.

"But what about the parents?"

Well, there you have it. It's not like you were unaware the decline of the family structure would affect the educational performance of students growing up under those circumstances. Toss in a few more wild cards like ESL and the learning handicapped....one quickly concludes the problem is far greater than the state of Texas would ever be able to solve. The critical differences are in the composition and values of the immediate family. That is a simple truth. The problem is there are more kids today who lack the benefit of family support in getting an education than kids who have it. The state, dedicated teachers, and all the money in the world will never be able to level that playing field. No one wants to hear it, but it's the unvarnished truth. If you, or anyone else for that matter, can solve this within the next three weeks....you have my write-in vote for governor. (Sorry, Kinky.)

[Texas Born,Chaparral Bred]

The author unfairly criticizes the community of Westlake for voting against two high schools. He makes it sound as if Westlake High is bursting through the seams and that football was the only reason for not building a new school. This is completely wrong. The truth is, Westlake isn't even a very large school. A little over 2,000 students attend. This puts them a couple hundred above the 5A cut-off.

Furthermore, Westlake is one of the finest academic high schools in Texas. This year's senior class has 20 national merit finalists and 40 national merit commended scholars. Splitting the district into two schools was not very likely to improve the academic quality of the district at all.

I do think that there is some truth to the fact that having high schools pushing the 4,000 student mark can cause a few problems, but saying that size of a school, or the importance of football is causing poor marks in education is being a little too shallow.

[dragons08]

I'm sure it's relavent in some cases, but the impact most coaches have, and the standards they require, means acceptable scholastic performance. At Carroll, 95% of the kids go on to college. A very, very low number fail to graduate from High School.
acuttally its like 99% i recall being told by a teacher (she could be wrong), might be closer to 100, but the problem is, they get us into great colleges, but the drop out rate at colleges by carroll kids is 30% (roughly), i dont know where the compares to other schools, but thats consderibly high IMO

at carroll, i had one day of taks review last year..all the other times we didnt do anything taks related, well some what, essays and stuff, but that was for books we were reading, that were taks style

this year, it seems more focused on SAT for us, they beefed up english this year, a lot more essays and reading, to help improve those scores on essay, and plus you need to do a lot of reading in college

[Drake]

Greetings Drake...and kudos on the offhand introduction of an extremely high quality source of discomfort for those basking in the status quo.Whyzat! Where you been? You know, I'd PAY to participate in this forum if they could guarantee at least one post from you per week! Good to see you're still around...

[zippy]

I personally think one of the biggest problems is that now most teachers are forced to teach solely for a test, namely Taks and not help the kids learn in a manner that will benefit them throughout life. That test is completely useless the second after you pass it.

On the note about AP classes I benefited immensly from it. Not only did they prepare me for the level of work and reading in many college courses but I entered college with 27 hours of credit which is allowing me to double major now.

Very Very TRUE. Also a big pile of B.S. You know its bad when P.E. and Music teachers are teaching this "test" material in their lesson plans. This is no joke. Some schools are acually making them implement this into their lesson plans.

[JoeC]

Can I attempt to be the devil’s advocate here? Some of this article makes sense, while other parts smell of a "misguided agenda." Truthfully, the article is not totally biased, nor is it totally leftist.

I am a board member of an NP Organization that works diligently trying to enhance our social conditions. We work diligently with local schools in that effort. My point, maybe we shouldn't be so quick to throw out the baby with the bath water. I would prefer to look at this with a more balanced perspective. How do you solve a problem? First you must acknowledge that one exist...

First, football is not the “total blame” but many of you know just as well as I do, it is does have to accept some of the responsibility;
Second, school size is a problem. Some of our schools (attempting to educate teenagers) are simply too big; and
Finally and probably most importantly, socioeconomic conditions is a major factor. By and large, richer schools and districts tend to do much better academically; while on the other hand, poorer schools and districts tend to do far worse. It appears that money is an equalizer.

After all, the “real objective” of this article is about making Texas schools much better academically; in such, we must look at all the potential problems with an open frame of mind. Conventional wisdom says that in order to solve a problem you must look at all potential factors. Bring them "all" to the table, look at them as a whole and then seek a viable solution...

[jrock89]

The link below forwards to an interesting article about the state of education in Texas... Its a good article for this forum because the author's primary premise is that Texas High School Football, and specifically schools that prioritize winning above all else, are partly to blame for Texas' poor academic results and near bottom rankings nationally...

http://www.texasmonthly.com/2006-02-01/hart.php

I don't necessarily agree with the author, but it's an interesting read...

As usual, Judson is the focus of somebody's rage.

[whyzat]

"By any measure, Texas public high schools are broken. Although you wouldn’t know it from the Texas Education Agency’s prettied-up dropout statistics, around a third of all students who enter high school never graduate; for inner-city students, the percentage is even higher. Among students who continue to college, nearly 30 percent will require remedial courses. Texas’ SAT scores rank forty-seventh in the nation. Anglo students in the class of 2005 had an 82 percent passing rate on the state’s high school exit test, but the figures were much grimmer for African Americans (52 percent) and Hispanics (56 percent). The true failure rate would have to account for the kids who didn’t stay in school to take the test in their junior year."

This is a social problem, and not strictly an educational problem, as some would have you believe. Attempts to remedy it strictly within public schools would be the equivalent of a physician treating the symptoms, but not the disease. Those of you defending your individual schools may stand down. They are obviously the exception, rather than the norm for which Ms. Hart cited statistics.
You will need to stand back up when cynical politicans and Educrats decide to apply some "one size fits all" fix prior to a future election cycle. That day will come. After thirty years, I don't think many of them still believe that outcome based education is realistically possible, but something as insignificant as facts will not stand in the way of anything to insure re-election, or sustain the ever increasing flow of resources into public schools. It remains a damn shame that so important an issue is defined by money and politics, instead of the genuine best interests of our kids. We are experiencing the consequences of decades of lacking the courage and political will to directly confront the abandonment of the family structure on one hand, and the unfettered flow of illegal immigration on the other. Public schools are the victims of these ill conceved choices, not the source.

[KatyMachine]

I attended High school in three different states, graduating here in Texas. Massachusetts ,Alabama, and Texas. I can tell you the school sin Alabama are FAR worse than they are here. I attended college in Boston so...I'd rate it 1, Texas 2 and Bama 3.

The writer has valid points....and some flawed. When I moved to Texas there was talk of Consolidating Brazoswood ( Who nows sits at 6-0 after def Clear Creek. ) and Brazosport ( Now a dismal 0-6 I believe. ) I rememeber hearing coaches say the School ( which would have numbered well over 3,000..close to 4,000 ) would have been talent rich. But Parents at the more "affluent" Brazoswood were great opposed of it. Being they were 5A and have a great Baseball Program, and a state title in Football in 74'

On the other hand..it's not alway about football. When I moved to Texas Katy ISD consisted of Mayde Creek, Katy, Katy Taylor. Three schools. Now you Have Cinco Ranch, Morton Ranch, and Seven lakes. Six Schools now ? And I have yet to see a drop off in the Tigers program. Good coaching and bright athletes perhaps. I think Katy is a great example..of growth ,without a dropoff in play. It can go either way.

[KatyMachine]

As someone from the NE who has thought Football in Texas is good and has it's place. I never thought it to be over the top. BUT......if anyone gets the chance to, they should ride by the New Cy-Fair ISD sports complex/ football stadium..*cough* Reliant Stadium Jr. I don't know if there are any pictures out there of this place but...alot of D-IA schools would like to play there I'm sure. For high school athletics....It's a jaw dropper.

[chap fan]

Anyone who states that the Westlake bond election to build two high schools revolved around athletics is buying into a false stereotype. I was very involved in the campaign against that issue, so I really had the opportunity both to know the volunteers and talk directly to a lot of community members during the election.

Our district is declining in population. At the time we had exaggerated demographer's reports that falsely forecast growth that didn't happen. Michael Dell buying up most of the remaining developable land and putting it into a wild game preserve (and killing our tax base at a terrible time for Robin Hood districts) didn't help, but we had a good idea even then that those reports were unrealistic.

Growth or not, football or not, the bottom line was we couldn't AFFORD to build a second high school. That's right--us "rich" folks. Had that issue passed, we probably would have had to declare bankruptcy by now. Consideration of building a third middle school (which never went before the voters, but was seriously considered) had to be rejected for the same reason.

The proposal to build a second high school was premised on the presumption that Robin Hood would be significantly changed and the district had joined a trade association to ensure that. When the husband of a famous presidential advisor who was one of the issue's strongest backers on the board told me that, I knew we were in for big trouble. I had been leaning towards a second high school until I realized the board wasn't doing it's due diligence. I ran the spread sheet that purported to show we could run two high schools as cheaply as one by a real superintendent who confirmed my suspicions that it was total garbage. We could afford to build the physical structure with bond taxes, but we were already bleeding from massive cuts in our maintenance and operations budget to run the schools. We couldn't afforde to staff and run a second high school without gutting our program. It took a herculean effort to get that complicated message out, but fortunately we have very intelligent and involved parents, who, once they were aware of the facts, understood why there wasn't a real choice to be made.

Those are the facts, and thank goodness our voters realized it. And since then, our student population has declined and we're accepting transfers to try to keep enough kids enrolled to avoid mothballing schools. Sorry for the long post, but someone is very misinformed.

[RocklandDragon]

As someone from the NE who has thought Football in Texas is good and has it's place. I never thought it to be over the top. BUT......if anyone gets the chance to, they should ride by the New Cy-Fair ISD sports complex/ football stadium..*cough* Reliant Stadium Jr. I don't know if there are any pictures out there of this place but...alot of D-IA schools would like to play there I'm sure. For high school athletics....It's a jaw dropper.

Here 'ya go!

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2332779150096332165BXrHxF
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2703682870096332165GmfFVw
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2917708290096332165AnfKsq

It is a jaw dropper but I ain't mad. It's a gorgeous place and it doesn't seem to hold back Cy-Fair ISD academics. No problem for me.

:cool:

[JoeC]

Here 'ya go!

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2332779150096332165BXrHxF
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2703682870096332165GmfFVw
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2917708290096332165AnfKsq

It is a jaw dropper but I ain't mad. It's a gorgeous place and it doesn't seem to hold back Cy-Fair ISD academics. No problem for me.

:cool:

Un -freaking- believable!!! Now that's a real fine example of a lot of hard work and monies dedicated to promoting social academics. :rolleyes: ;)

[whyzat]

"Finally and probably most importantly, socioeconomic conditions is a major factor. By and large, richer schools and districts tend to do much better academically; while on the other hand, poorer schools and districts tend to do far worse. It appears that money is an equalizer." Posted by JoeC.

Joe, I wish it was that simple, that money would be the magic bullet. It is not. Over thirty years, the per capita expenditure has tripled....with diminishing performance results for the at risk kids. Studies indicate that an intact nuclear family unit is the sole best predictor for student success. Still more funding for underperforming public schools cannot fix that.

[JoeC]

"Finally and probably most importantly, socioeconomic conditions is a major factor. By and large, richer schools and districts tend to do much better academically; while on the other hand, poorer schools and districts tend to do far worse. It appears that money is an equalizer." Posted by JoeC.

Joe, I wish it was that simple, that money would be the magic bullet. It is not. Over thirty years, the per capita expenditure has tripled....with diminishing performance results for the at risk kids. Studies indicate that an intact nuclear family unit is the sole best predictor for student success. Still more funding for underperforming public schools cannot fix that.


Oh, believe me, I agree... I never said that it was THE Problem, only part of the equation.

[maxtor]

Could the problem be that kids have no respect for authority, realize that there is little punishment for their actions, do not fear non existant corporal punishment, talk on cell phones in class and tell the teacher "talk to the hand", dont have the work ethic of their forefathers.

Today, virtues are a byword. Children these days arent taught to perfect virtues. They dont even know what they are. Truth, hope, charity, faith, love, patience, peacekeeping, humility, humbleness and wisdom are foriegn words nowadays. Our youth seek to be the full pattern of pop culture. Always seeking the latest sayings, latest looks and trinkets(remember last year those colored rubber wrist bands?).

Today the only value that society places on women are what they look like and how much money they make.

If only I were in charge. lol

[Firebird]

First of all, I am amazed at how anyone says anything on this board that is not with the main-stream of thought, they are a "leftist".

Advocating smaller schools and less emphasis on athletics is not "leftist". It is expressing a different idea of education. Now advocating fee condom machines in schoo...that is leftist.

Having said, that, I agree with most posters. Societal ills, especially the lack of attention parents give to education, is far more of a problem. And I don't think football is the only reason for superschools.

But there is a case to be made for smaller schools. Unfortunately, public policy has to be formulated to the real world. And in our world, most parents expect the school to take care of everything. Sad but true. I wish I could change it. Most school employees wish they could change it. But you can't and you have to work with what you have got.

I have long though that a 3a-small 4a size school was a nice size. You can still offer most of the same programs, but with a more manegable size, and kids are less likely to get "lost". But changing school size is no magic bullet, and neither is money.

Schools in Texas CAN do a better job. Plain and simple. Throwing your hands up and simply saying it can't be done shouldn't be an option. Blaming Robin Hood, immigrants, bad parents, etc.....well yes, they might have something to do with the problem. But again..ya work with what you got.

There needs to be room to consider different options. When someone voices an idea, name-calling doesn't help.

Just call me a leftist, I guess.

[JoeC]

I know what I am about to expound may spark an avalanche of negative comments, but I'm going to say it anyway. Beforehand, I'd like to challenge you to read this with and open mind.

What I would like to see done is an empirical study of say, ten years, done whereby kids from a "rich district" schools are transposed to "poor district" (as popularly exclaimed, "inner city") schools and vice versa with all other things (i.e., home/family conditions – support system) remaining the same. In other words, just change the schools, nothing else. From there I'd like to see academic and social trends result. I'd be willing to bet that there'd still be a drop off in academics in the “pre-richer district kids” and conversely, an upward trend in the “pre-poorer kids”.... To the disbelief of many, some of these schools are in deplorable condition (books, technology, and other vital resources); and as a result, adversely impact the mental capacity of a majority of its dwellers. A good and enlightening book to read is the Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell.... No, money damn sure isn’t everything, but it damn sure doesn’t hurt either…. What I’d like to do is encourage and challenge some business people like (I did) myself to mentor at some of these “inner city schools” so you can see these conditions first hand. There are a lot of bright minds at some of these schools; as such, all some of these kids need is a positive role model or they don’t stand a snow-balls chance in hell. Unfortunately, we’re (U.S. -as a world leader) running out of time to repair this situation. Our (all of U.S. – together) future is at stake. Statistics indicate that by 2012 we will have some 167 million jobs to fill but will have only 155 million to feel those jobs. Now, factor in the school drop out and failure rate and you can begin to see the urgency…. I’m going to say this one more time; no, money is not THE Problem, only part of the equation…

[Oldman123]

When your next to a 3rd world country that dosent speak english and the people who come here dont learn the language, schools grades suffer. Take a look at Arizona, California, and New Mexico, its the same damn story.

[JoeC]

When your next to a 3rd world country that dosent speak english and the people who come here dont learn the language, schools grades suffer. Take a look at Arizona, California, and New Mexico, its the same damn story.

No argument there.... I totally agree; English should always be the first language....

[The King]

I won't discuss any issues that maybe in place if your getting your news from Texas Monthly, But their is one question they did not look at in that article. I went to a small school 2A McCamey (now 1A) the moved to Katy 5A in my sophmore year I didn't make the grades and had to sit out for 6 weeks.

The question that needs to be asked is what do you do with all the kids if you don't have athletics or band or any other extracurricular activities.

Idle hands are the devils playground and a good extra curricular activitiy involves the use of time. The most important thing a good EC does is provide a healthy supervised activity for the kids, many of whom would get in trouble if they had all that free time on their hands.

In the smaller school a higher % of kids were involved, unfortunantly the real world often dictates larger schools. Eduactors and parents should push for football, band, baseball and anything to get the student from just going to class.

[zippy]

I won't discuss any issues that maybe in place if your getting your news from Texas Monthly, But their is one question they did not look at in that article. I went to a small school 2A McCamey (now 1A) the moved to Katy 5A in my sophmore year I didn't make the grades and had to sit out for 6 weeks.

The question that needs to be asked is what do you do with all the kids if you don't have athletics or band or any other extracurricular activities.

Idle hands are the devils playground and a good extra curricular activitiy involves the use of time. The most important thing a good EC does is provide a healthy supervised activity for the kids, many of whom would get in trouble if they had all that free time on their hands.

In the smaller school a higher % of kids were involved, unfortunantly the real world often dictates larger schools. Eduactors and parents should push for football, band, baseball and anything to get the student from just going to class.

When you sat out due to grades, did you get them back up? Was part of it so you could get back out there and play?

[CoveMom]

I personally think one of the biggest problems is that now most teachers are forced to teach solely for a test, namely Taks and not help the kids learn in a manner that will benefit them throughout life. That test is completely useless the second after you pass it.

On the note about AP classes I benefited immensly from it. Not only did they prepare me for the level of work and reading in many college courses but I entered college with 27 hours of credit which is allowing me to double major now.

I am sorry if you took my post to mean there is no value in AP classes, etc. There certainly is. But, they are not for everyone. We put our son in Pre-AP his Freshman year and he acutally did very well. We just decided that since we are in a financial position to wait out his very likely difficult Freshman year in college, that we will wait for the advanced stuff until he gets there. For us, it was a quality of life issue. He's a teenager, and we are trying our best to let him be one. Congratulations on your college success. I sincerely hope you do very well. It sounds like you are well-grounded and have a level head on your shoulders. I would only ask that you continue to stop and smell the roses along the way. :)

As to your note about teaching to the TAKS. You are right on the money. Cove ISD has even adopted Math curriculum for 5-12 grades that virtually admits this. No textbook since there are none out there that "match" what is on the TAKS. Maybe if the TAKS were based instead on what is being taught...now THERE'S a novel idea :D

[The King]

When you sat out due to grades, did you get them back up? Was part of it so you could get back out there and play?

Yeah I really wanted to get back out their. It really doesn't matter why some people shode to make the grades as long as they do it.

[The King]

If I ever heard my kid say that, he'd never pick up a baseball again as long as he lived in my house.

~DnM
If he went out and learned the minimum to pass cause he wanted to play baseball he learned more than he would have without it

[zippy]

Yeah I really wanted to get back out their. It really doesn't matter why some people shode to make the grades as long as they do it.

Thats great. I agree, it does not matter what motivates you, the fact is you got them up. Because of what? To play again. This is one aspect that shows sports can have a positive effect on grades.

[Finish_Strong]

Problems:
-TAKS
-Whites (who have been proven as a whole to make better grades on state test then other groups, are becoming the minority in texas now.)
-Teachers having to teach just for a certain test, as stated above


I mean when I played, I made my grades because I wanted to play football, so if anything football should be helping the matter


( The comment above was not ment to be racial, just a proven fact)

[DrEdward]

Football in particular, and athletics, in genereal, are frequently blamed for academic shortcomings. The participation and identification of a student in a group, however, is a much stronger determinant of his/her success in high school. Certainly football is one of those groups. With respect to the school size argument, I quite agree that a school with 4,000 students is too large for optimal academic performance. However, depending upon the socio-demographics of the community being served, the "optimal" size school that is typically recommended in the literature is in the range of 600 to 900 students. In other words, for example, if the area we are talking about is a large inner city high school with a current enrollment of 4,000, the proponents of the smaller sized schools are not simply talking about dividing it in two, but rather four to six separate schools! Again, for more affluent communities, this finding does not necessarily hold.

[Firebird]

When your next to a 3rd world country that dosent speak english and the people who come here dont learn the language, schools grades suffer. Take a look at Arizona, California, and New Mexico, its the same damn story.


A. Mexico is not a 3rd world country, it is a middle income country and going up. However, the US-Mexican border still represents the greatest economic dividing line in the world. But, we all have NAFTA to thank...immigration from northern Mexico has plummeted recently, as is Mexico's % of total illegal immigrant.

B. Latin-American immigrants, both legal and illegal, learn English at a rate approximate to that of other "waves" of immigrants, faster than some, slower than others. Study after study after study has proven this is so. (One was reported in the Houston Chronicle a week or so ago.) It is factualy incorrect to say that they are not learging English, unless you consider that previous waves "didn't learn English."

C. Although "Whites" statistically outperform African Americans and Hispanics, Finish Strong, East Asians and Indians outperform them all.

Dr. Edward, thank you for some numbers and factual information on the matter at hand.

[twcpfan1]

A. Mexico is not a 3rd world country, it is a middle income country and going up. However, the US-Mexican border still represents the greatest economic dividing line in the world. But, we all have NAFTA to thank...immigration from northern Mexico has plummeted recently, as is Mexico's % of total illegal immigrant.

B. Latin-American immigrants, both legal and illegal, learn English at a rate approximate to that of other "waves" of immigrants, faster than some, slower than others. Study after study after study has proven this is so. (One was reported in the Houston Chronicle a week or so ago.) It is factualy incorrect to say that they are not learging English, unless you consider that previous waves "didn't learn English."

C. Although "Whites" statistically outperform African Americans and Hispanics, Finish Strong, East Asians and Indians outperform them all.

Dr. Edward, thank you for some numbers and factual information on the matter at hand.

Are there any stats on mixed race students? Do 1/2 Asian and 1/2 white students do even better?

[KTFURB]

I'm sure it's relavent in some cases, but the impact most coaches have, and the standards they require, means acceptable scholastic performance. At Carroll, 95% of the kids go on to college. A very, very low number fail to graduate from High School.

No doubt Carroll's situation would not fit the authors model. But, Carroll is a very wealthy neighborhood, where the graduation numbers will always be high. Her example of the Eanes ISD and Westlake doesn't fit either. I have no doubt that Westlakes drop out rate is well below average. Kids from families with money are much more likely to graduate than poorer students. Katy Taylor, Cinco Ranch and Memorial will always have high college attendance numbers too. Carroll doesn't fit into the megaschool enrollment numbers either.
I've heard the complaint that at large schools only the elite athletes get to participate, so the average kid never gets the opportunity to be involved. This is probably not very PC, but so what. That's life and reality. Only the best in anything get to do those things. There are plenty of Little Leagues and Pop Warner Leagues where kids establish their abilities. In every one of those leagues attrition eliminates players with each graduation into the next age group. And the majority of high school players will never get a scholarship and play college ball.
I went to megaschool...my wife went to a 2A. In every school there are popular and not, achievers and losers, cum laudes and drop outs.
While not all high schools are created equal, I believe that every individual will only get the education that he or she works to get. Genius knows no color or economic situation. It all starts at home. How much importance is placed on education will generally determine the outcome.
Schools with the highest drop out rates are generally in the lowest economic areas. Many adults lacking a good education fail to recognize the benefits and thus don't stress the importance to their kids. Its kinda the "if its good enough for me..." attitude.
Bottom line... while I recognize the problem of high drop out rates in low income schools, to try and establish a link to high school sports is ridiculous.
And...as for down sizing schools in the suburbs, Katy has 6 high school campuses. Down sizing to 1000 enrollment schools would require 12 more campuses. Try floating that idea by the taxpayers!

[zippy]

No doubt Carroll's situation would not fit the authors model. But, Carroll is a very wealthy neighborhood, where the graduation numbers will always be high. Her example of the Eanes ISD and Westlake doesn't fit either. I have no doubt that Westlakes drop out rate is well below average. Kids from families with money are much more likely to graduate than poorer students. Katy Taylor, Cinco Ranch and Memorial will always have high college attendance numbers too. Carroll doesn't fit into the megaschool enrollment numbers either.
I've heard the complaint that at large schools only the elite athletes get to participate, so the average kid never gets the opportunity to be involved. This is probably not very PC, but so what. That's life and reality. Only the best in anything get to do those things. There are plenty of Little Leagues and Pop Warner Leagues where kids establish their abilities. In every one of those leagues attrition eliminates players with each graduation into the next age group. And the majority of high school players will never get a scholarship and play college ball.
I went to megaschool...my wife went to a 2A. In every school there are popular and not, achievers and losers, cum laudes and drop outs.
While not all high schools are created equal, I believe that every individual will only get the education that he or she works to get. Genius knows no color or economic situation. It all starts at home. How much importance is placed on education will generally determine the outcome.
Schools with the highest drop out rates are generally in the lowest economic areas. Many adults lacking a good education fail to recognize the benefits and thus don't stress the importance to their kids. Its kinda the "if its good enough for me..." attitude.
Bottom line... while I recognize the problem of high drop out rates in low income schools, to try and establish a link to high school sports is ridiculous.
And...as for down sizing schools in the suburbs, Katy has 6 high school campuses. Down sizing to 1000 enrollment schools would require 12 more campuses. Try floating that idea by the taxpayers!

I do agree with families with money. Not only are most of them college grads themselves, but their kids usually are too. There are other kids out there that have to work 8 hours after school just to live. Then when it comes time for college, yea right. They have to get another job that might pay a little better to support themselves. Its these kids I feel bad for. Its hard to get out of HS when you dont even get home from work until 1AM. Not everyone has a car, free gas, and a crisp new $100 bill when they ask for it. Many students today support their family. Yea, bad parents in some cases, I agree, but nothing the kid could do. They usually end up dropping out in order to eat and pay bills. Just another deal to consider when trying to blame it on sports.

[Oldman123]

Firebird, I was not talking about the past, im talking now. Do those numbers account for the numbers of people comming into the country? I just talk about things I see in real life not what some bs study says. Anyone can make up numbers that favor their point.

[Firebird]

Firebird, I was not talking about the past, im talking now. Do those numbers account for the numbers of people comming into the country? I just talk about things I see in real life not what some bs study says. Anyone can make up numbers that favor their point.


Yes, they do. And your complaints EXACTLY mirror nativist sentiments during earlier waves of immigration.

Immigrants, illegal and otherwise, are rational people who understand that their earning potential increases if they know English. Learning English is tops on the "to-do" list of nearly every recent arrival to the states, save for a few on the lunatic fringe. Most of the driving forces behind "Spanish only" movements are not immigrants, by the way. However, it is true that younger immigrants learn English faster than their parents and grandparents--- a phenomoneon that has held true for every previous wave as well. Children of immigrants born here speak both, and by the 3rd and 4th generations, English replaces Spanish almost completely.

And I will take hard numbers and research over yours or my personal observations any day of the week.

[whyzat]

Yes, they do. And your complaints EXACTLY mirror nativist sentiments during earlier waves of immigration.

Immigrants, illegal and otherwise, are rational people who understand that their earning potential increases if they know English. Learning English is tops on the "to-do" list of nearly every recent arrival to the states, save for a few on the lunatic fringe. Most of the driving forces behind "Spanish only" movements are not immigrants, by the way. However, it is true that younger immigrants learn English faster than their parents and grandparents--- a phenomoneon that has held true for every previous wave as well. Children of immigrants born here speak both, and by the 3rd and 4th generations, English replaces Spanish almost completely.

And I will take hard numbers and research over yours or my personal observations any day of the week.
I don't think you are being entirely accurate with your historical references regarding earlier waves of immigration. While the complaints and sentiments may be similiar, the circumstances are entirely different. The European influx of the past two centuries was the product of a legal process. It was accomplished by the consent, formal approval, and registration procedures of the U.S. government. Do your hard numbers indicate that to be the case today? What does your research say about the venue in which past immigrants learned English? I don't recall taxpayer provided ESL classes being a program of long standing. Is it your position earlier waves of immigration exhausted anywhere near the amount of public resources currently expended? What does the research conclude in a comparing past and present dollar amounts dedicated to social, educational, and medical provisions for legal versus illegal immigrants? Oldman has a valid point, or complaint if he so chooses, in questioning this process. He is being taxed to fund it, without any real recourse at the ballot box to influence the policy. State and federal courts are making those decisions in our behalf. The policies and laws they hand down are enforced. The existing laws regarding illegal immigration are not enforced. How do you reconcile that?

[Favpack]

Everyone agrees that public education in Texas is horrendous - but no common ground on how to fix it. I personally don't think large high schools is the problem. Too much emphasis on football is, if any problem, minor compared to the bigger issues.

[Oldman123]

Clapping for Whyzat!

[drgnbkr]

Clapping for Whyzat!

Me too!

[The King]

No doubt Carroll's situation would not fit the authors model. But, Carroll is a very wealthy neighborhood, where the graduation numbers will always be high. Her example of the Eanes ISD and Westlake doesn't fit either. I have no doubt that Westlakes drop out rate is well below average. Kids from families with money are much more likely to graduate than poorer students. Katy Taylor, Cinco Ranch and Memorial will always have high college attendance numbers too. Carroll doesn't fit into the megaschool enrollment numbers either.
I've heard the complaint that at large schools only the elite athletes get to participate, so the average kid never gets the opportunity to be involved. This is probably not very PC, but so what. That's life and reality. Only the best in anything get to do those things. There are plenty of Little Leagues and Pop Warner Leagues where kids establish their abilities. In every one of those leagues attrition eliminates players with each graduation into the next age group. And the majority of high school players will never get a scholarship and play college ball.


I had a roomate in college from Aleif Hastings High school. When he went Hastings had ~4800 students and Elsik had ~4800 students. These two school were side by side between the 2 of them they had 3 cafeterias one of them was common to both school, and they determined attendance not by where the student lived, but bu a lottery system in the 8th grade.
One thing that has always concerned me about these 2 schools is large enrollment and low participation, both school could carry more kids on the football team, and many more in the band drill team. I wonder how all this affects acedemic performance.

[DrEdward]

Everyone agrees that public education in Texas is horrendous - but no common ground on how to fix it. I personally don't think large high schools is the problem. Too much emphasis on football is, if any problem, minor compared to the bigger issues.

I quite agree here. Football is not the problem. As I referenced earlier, the literature suggests an "optimal" size high school in the range of 600 to 900 students. There are caveats all around those estimates, but we can let those go at the moment. I would simply point out that such a size is a 3A school. So most high schools in Texas are 3A and below in terms of enrollment. In such a case, too large a school is not a problem, football or no. The complaint about large schools, therefore comes down, for the most part, to issues in thr ISDs serving the larger cities in the state. It is quite obviousl that there are major issues there, but many of the smaller schools also have problems as well. So one must be quite careful in analyzing the underlying problems associated with school size and academic performance. One thing is very clear in all of this: if the parents care, the students care, and the teachers care, then the academic perfomrance will be fine. If those aspects are missing, then no matter what the size of the school or what the status of the football team's success, the academics will also fail to make the grade.

[dragonsdaddy]

haven't yet read the balance of this thread, but in response to the title, i highly recommend the following article. it is dead on imo.

http://www.pdkintl.org/kappan/kchi9804.htm

[ruffshod]

Too much emphasis on standardized tests, and too much focus on the gifted and talented.

[FeeltheHaka]

How about the virtues that a Football program provide? Competiveness, Teamwork, ability to perform under pressure, ability to perform under the public eye, Health and fitness, Leadership and managment of a large group of people, Morals, etc. We could make a huge list out of this one.
Think about this: If you were an employer, who would you want working for you? One who made good grades, but did not participate in football. Or, one who made good grades, but did participate in football. I would even take one who made average grades, but played football; over one who made good grades, but did not play football.
I did not read the full article, as it would not let me read it unless I bought a magazine subscription to Texas Monthly. Do this many people here have a subcription?

[zippy]

How about the virtues that a Football program provide? Competiveness, Teamwork, ability to perform under pressure, ability to perform under the public eye, Health and fitness, Leadership and managment of a large group of people, Morals, etc. We could make a huge list out of this one.
Think about this: If you were an employer, who would you want working for you? One who made good grades, but did not participate in football. Or, one who made good grades, but did participate in football. I would even take one who made average grades, but played football; over one who made good grades, but did not play football.
I did not read the full article, as it would not let me read it unless I bought a magazine subscription to Texas Monthly. Do this many people here have a subcription?

With our current system, you can toss all that out the window in place of perfect "state test" scores, and everything would be great in some peoples heads.

[ScottS]

Does anyone think my use of the word retards (back on page 1 of this thread) was too harsh? Here's my quote:

The writer never metions SLC. Maybe because it would shoot holes in her theme. Personally I think most journalist type people are retards. They seem to find something they don't like, in this case football, and link it to all of societies issues. They ignore other variables that could cause those issues (such as parential involvement in this case) and cherry pick things that support their argument.

[Drake]

Does anyone think my use of the word retards (back on page 1 of this thread) was too harsh? Here's my quote:

The writer never metions SLC. Maybe because it would shoot holes in her theme. Personally I think most journalist type people are retards. They seem to find something they don't like, in this case football, and link it to all of societies issues. They ignore other variables that could cause those issues (such as parential involvement in this case) and cherry pick things that support their argument.Naw, not too harsh... Unless of course, you think stereotyping the members of a certain profession, a bigotted response to somone's opinion, and/or insensitivity towards mentally handicapped members of our society as being "too harsh". :D

[mesquitefan]

I personally think one of the biggest problems is that now most teachers are forced to teach solely for a test, namely Taks and not help the kids learn in a manner that will benefit them throughout life. That test is completely useless the second after you pass it.

On the note about AP classes I benefited immensly from it. Not only did they prepare me for the level of work and reading in many college courses but I entered college with 27 hours of credit which is allowing me to double major now.

You are right on about the TAKS test. My neice started teaching 3rd grade this year in MISD and she is working until 10:00 or 11:00 at night trying to prepare lessons for both TAKS and regular school work. There is so much pressure on these teachers....it's a wonder they don't all quit after a few years.:mad:

[dragonsdaddy]

You are right on about the TAKS test. My neice started teaching 3rd grade this year in MISD and she is working until 10:00 or 11:00 at night trying to prepare lessons for both TAKS and regular school work. There is so much pressure on these teachers....it's a wonder they don't all quit after a few years.:mad:
many, and often the best and brightest do. tired head kills initiative, if given enough time.

[whyzat]

Naw, not too harsh... Unless of course, you think stereotyping the members of a certain profession, a bigotted response to somone's opinion, and/or insensitivity towards mentally handicapped members of our society as being "too harsh". :D
Having once considered myself an accomplished provocateur and adept sower of the seeds of insurrection and discontent, I happened across Drake in the vastness of cyberspace. Now, standing with humility in the presence of true greatness, I acknowledge his sole revision of the standards by which this fine art is practiced. Bravo, well done, and long may you incite. Does your schedule preclude apprenticeships? :p

[Drake]

Having once considered myself an accomplished provocateur and adept sower of the seeds of insurrection and discontent, I happened across Drake in the vastness of cyberspace. Now, standing with humility in the presence of true greatness, I acknowledge his sole revision of the standards by which this fine art is practiced. Bravo, well done, and long may you incite. Does your schedule preclude apprenticeships? :pWhyzat! I should be learning from you! It's rare indeed to happen upon a wordsmith with your genius or flair. For only you can weave words together so eloquently, that with your words you can describe me as a "smartass" and yet the very same words coerce me into taking it as a compliment... :)

[whyzat]

Whyzat! I should be learning from you! It's rare indeed to happen upon a wordsmith with your genius or flair. For only you can weave words together so eloquently, that with your words you can describe me as a "smartass" and yet the very same words coerce me into taking it as a compliment... :)

Au contraire, maestro. Perhaps we should hang togather, lest we hang seperately. :rolleyes:

[CoveMom]

From my old First Sergeant (a very wise man):

Tact: The ability to tell another person to "go to he!!" and make them look forward to the trip!

On presenting briefings to one's superiors: "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with Bullsh**!"

:D :D :D

[dragonsdaddy]

From my old First Sergeant (a very wise man):

Tact: The ability to tell another person to "go to he!!" and make them look forward to the trip!

On presenting briefings to one's superiors: "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with Bullsh**!"

:D :D :D
bingo. good pickup there mom. he was a smart man, and you learned well, too.

[DrEdward]

It would appear that this thread has run its course.

[JoeC]

Having once considered myself an accomplished provocateur and adept sower of the seeds of insurrection and discontent, I happened across Drake in the vastness of cyberspace. Now, standing with humility in the presence of true greatness, I acknowledge his sole revision of the standards by which this fine art is practiced. Bravo, well done, and long may you incite. Does your schedule preclude apprenticeships? :p

What a savory discourse. I found it to both pungent and sweet, that is, if one believes that tongue can provide flavor.

[tigerowl06]

It would appear that this thread has run its course.

No Sir, you are mistaken. Beneath its superficial appearance, this thread is headed for something truely profound ;) . Just a few more pages of this and we should have our thesis.

Note: I saw earlier on this thread that we were attempting to establish performance/ethnicity correlations. Someone said that asians are outperforming whites in school. While this is true, it is important to understand that asians actually exist outside of time. This gives them the ability to know all of the answers to tests beforehand, and an apparent knack for memorization. They miss a few on purpose occasionally to avoid giving themselves away. They are also quite venomous, but their fangs exist mostly in a tiny, curled-up sixth dimension. They are there nonetheless, and quite sharp, I might add. It would be prudent to keep your distance.

I hope that contributed something to the discourse. :)

[CoveMom]

No Sir, you are mistaken. Beneath its superficial appearance, this thread is headed for something truely profound ;) . Just a few more pages of this and we should have our thesis.

Note: I saw earlier on this thread that we were attempting to establish performance/ethnicity correlations. Someone said that asians are outperforming whites in school. While this is true, it is important to understand that asians actually exist outside of time. This gives them the ability to know all of the answers to tests beforehand, and an apparent knack for memorization. They miss a few on purpose occasionally to avoid giving themselves away. They are also quite venomous, but their fangs exist mostly in a tiny, curled-up sixth dimension. They are there nonetheless, and quite sharp, I might add. It would be prudent to keep your distance.

I hope that contributed something to the discourse. :)


Let me put my boots on and I'll ponder its worth.....

[CoveMom]

Let me put my boots on and I'll ponder its worth.....

Upon reflection I have determined that the only poster on here who can cut through this...stuff...is BeauxGeezy. Besides, it is up to my ankles now.

We need you Beaux.

[DiamondJ2]

Too much emphasis on standardized tests, and too much focus on the gifted and talented.

Too much focus on special education, emotionally disturbed, and standardized testings. Try teaching a class of 30+ students with 3 GT, 5 SE, 3 ED, 3 ESL, 4 504, 2 recently returnees from alternative school, and 10+ regular students. What transpires is the average kid gets left out and then some of those fall between the cracks.

[whyzat]

No Sir, you are mistaken. Beneath its superficial appearance, this thread is headed for something truely profound ;) . Just a few more pages of this and we should have our thesis.

Note: I saw earlier on this thread that we were attempting to establish performance/ethnicity correlations. Someone said that asians are outperforming whites in school. While this is true, it is important to understand that asians actually exist outside of time. This gives them the ability to know all of the answers to tests beforehand, and an apparent knack for memorization. They miss a few on purpose occasionally to avoid giving themselves away. They are also quite venomous, but their fangs exist mostly in a tiny, curled-up sixth dimension. They are there nonetheless, and quite sharp, I might add. It would be prudent to keep your distance.

I hope that contributed something to the discourse. :)


Indeed you have. The Existentialist perspective you provided, and I might add, without resorting to the discredited worm hole theory of polarity reversal within the space/time continuum, has been vital to peer review and acceptance. Although Cove Mom has requested the services of a specialist, your scientific credentials seem impeccable to me. While I concur with Dr. Edwards earlier and excellent diagnosis for this thread, it's a slow enough night to shoot for mid-calf, or even knee deep levels. ;)

[tigerowl06]

Indeed you have. The Existentialist perspective you provided, and I might add, without resorting to the discredited worm hole theory of polarity reversal within the space/time continuum, has been vital to peer review and acceptance. Although Cove Mom has requested the services of a specialist, your scientific credentials seem impeccable to me. While I concur with Dr. Edwards earlier and excellent diagnosis for this thread, it's a slow enough night to shoot for mid-calf, or even knee deep levels. ;)

Better to do that than butt heads all night. If we're going to deal with BS, we might as well be creative and funny. :p

[CoveMom]

Indeed you have. The Existentialist perspective you provided, and I might add, without resorting to the discredited worm hole theory of polarity reversal within the space/time continuum, has been vital to peer review and acceptance. Although Cove Mom has requested the services of a specialist, your scientific credentials seem impeccable to me. While I concur with Dr. Edwards earlier and excellent diagnosis for this thread, it's a slow enough night to shoot for mid-calf, or even knee deep levels. ;)

....I am cut unto the bone. My theory was not discredited, only called into question by the so-called scientists that work with that small-thinking Hawking fellow.

[whyzat]

Better to do that than butt heads all night. If we're going to deal with BS, we might as well be creative and funny. :p

Intentions notwithstanding, you are off to an excellent start. Run with it!

[tigerowl06]

Let me see here, CoveMom:

They are just not getting that as well as in the past because we (as a nation) bought into the notion that not only CAN all kids go on to 4 year universities, but that they SHOULD go to them. And then we decided that they MUST do so.

Yes, indeed, they must. Those who don't are total failures. A worthwhile existance can only be obtained through a diploma from an accredited, respected *expensive* institution of higher learning.

But to relate my point here to one of the themes of this thread, personal failure isn't the half of it. In fact, the very survival of this nation depends upon every man and woman over 27 holding a PhD. That's right, everyone, down to the lizards :mad:. This is the only way we can overcome the looming threat of the nasty, vile races and nations that constitute the rest of the world (see earlier post as an example). We must make haste to dilute the value of higher education before they do.

Alert: CoveMom, you'll need to ditch your boots and flee to higher ground. I think I heard someone watching the depth meter yell "MARK TWAIN". :D

[tigerowl06]

Intentions notwithstanding, you are off to an excellent start. Run with it!

What do you mean?

[CoveMom]

Alert: CoveMom, you'll need to ditch your boots and flee to higher ground. I think I heard someone watching the depth meter yell "MARK TWAIN". :D


Nobody Piles it higher or Deeper than the United States Army.

In basic training we were taught what to do if there was a nuclear attack. From the moment you see the *flash* you are to begin counting. When the blast passes over you (safe in your located ditch) you will then know how long it will be before it returns. Of course, nobody could tell me what practical value this has except to say your goodbyes to the cockroaches and pass on any knowledge they might find useful in the future.

Good night and don't get caught in the tesseract on the way out.

[GoOwls]

Nobody Piles it higher or Deeper than the United States Army.

In basic training we were taught what to do if there was a nuclear attack. From the moment you see the *flash* you are to begin counting. When the blast passes over you (safe in your located ditch) you will then know how long it will be before it returns. Of course, nobody could tell me what practical value this has except to say your goodbyes to the cockroaches and pass on any knowledge they might find useful in the future.

Good night and don't get caught in the tesseract on the way out.

Tesseract, now that's a word I haven't heard (read) in a long time. Might I ask how you heard of it? I read it in a book I got back in about 1968 in the 5th grade from the Weekly Reader program called "A Wrinkle in Time". I loved that book. I bet I read it 50 times, bare minimum.

[CoveMom]

Tesseract, now that's a word I haven't heard (read) in a long time. Might I ask how you heard of it? I read it in a book I got back in about 1968 in the 5th grade from the Weekly Reader program called "A Wrinkle in Time". I loved that book. I bet I read it 50 times, bare minimum.


:) You win. Of course this is the source. If you have a few hours, go back and read it again. Then read the sequels, "A Wind in the Door" and "A Swiftly Tilting Planet." Well worth the path down memory lane. You can find them at most used bookstores to save a few $. The are at all major bookstores also. One thing, don't get the audiobooks. A Wrinkle in Time was recorded by Madeline L'Engle and she was awful at reading it. Enjoy.

[whyzat]

What do you mean?


Nothing…..Sadly, ambiguity is symptomatic of early onset geriatric dementia. Excuse the delay, your query was eighteen minutes past my bedtime. The Mark Twain depth sounding was a nice touch. ;)

[GoOwls]

:) You win. Of course this is the source. If you have a few hours, go back and read it again. Then read the sequels, "A Wind in the Door" and "A Swiftly Tilting Planet." Well worth the path down memory lane. You can find them at most used bookstores to save a few $. The are at all major bookstores also. One thing, don't get the audiobooks. A Wrinkle in Time was recorded by Madeline L'Engle and she was awful at reading it. Enjoy.

I didn't know anything about the sequels. I still have my original book, if you can believe that. I remember that our teacher read to us for about 30 minutes after lunch each day and that is one of the books she read to us. I saw it in the Weekly Reader a month or so later and my mom bought it for me.

[CoveMom]

I didn't know anything about the sequels. I still have my original book, if you can believe that. I remember that our teacher read to us for about 30 minutes after lunch each day and that is one of the books she read to us. I saw it in the Weekly Reader a month or so later and my mom bought it for me.

Ditto, maybe the same edition. Mine is a weird blue color with a figure or 2 and some strange sci-fi looking lines on it. Its upstairs and I am down, so I can't see it. If the kids are around, I cannot reach the remote either :D. I think I first read it in 4th/5th/6th-grade timeframe. That would have been 1967-69. Just think...we went to different schools together!